SilliamWhale
Member
According to FW.
Very odd, the moorland lot will be in dreamland!
Very odd, the moorland lot will be in dreamland!
£129 ha for Wales!
- Thread starter SilliamWhale
- Start date
Penmoel
Member
Old news http://gov.wales/topics/environment...data-modelling-group-january-30-2015/?lang=en
176 euro at 73p on one flat rate across wales, thanks to the upland twits that looks like the best we can hope for.
Look at the possible options paper 5.
Who and how do we educate someone over this.... for family farms it may be the only saviour
2 Article
Redistributive payment
14. The regulations include the option4 of introducing an arrangement on an annual basis which in practical terms provides a top up payment on the ‘first hectares’ on a farm. The ‘first hectares’ in a Welsh context would be up to the first 54 ha on a claim for BPS support. The payment could be used in any or all of the years of this CAP reform. Previously the Welsh Government had rejected this option because it has the practical effect of moving money towards small farms and away from larger ones. The policy position was that there was no basis to justify doing this. On the latest data the practical effect remains the same and there do not appear to be any benefits from introducing it.
CAP Planning Division
Welsh Government
26 January 2015
176 euro at 73p on one flat rate across wales, thanks to the upland twits that looks like the best we can hope for.
Look at the possible options paper 5.
Who and how do we educate someone over this.... for family farms it may be the only saviour
2 Article
Redistributive payment
14. The regulations include the option4 of introducing an arrangement on an annual basis which in practical terms provides a top up payment on the ‘first hectares’ on a farm. The ‘first hectares’ in a Welsh context would be up to the first 54 ha on a claim for BPS support. The payment could be used in any or all of the years of this CAP reform. Previously the Welsh Government had rejected this option because it has the practical effect of moving money towards small farms and away from larger ones. The policy position was that there was no basis to justify doing this. On the latest data the practical effect remains the same and there do not appear to be any benefits from introducing it.
CAP Planning Division
Welsh Government
26 January 2015
glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
Seems a better deal than scotland , divided into 3 areas of; rough grazing, very rough grazing and everything else.
Will Blackburn
Member
- Location
- Cheshire
It will stop any afforestation of the uplands and increase flooding in the lowlands, double whammy.
How can you have a level playing field which runs from sea level to 3000 ft.
It will be a good pension scheme for the low output pensioner farmers,not many going to be handing over to new entrants.
For a semi intensive productive upland farm like ours we will lose out.
It is another nail in the coffin for suckler cow keepers who have been subsidising them from their historic payments.
It will be a good pension scheme for the low output pensioner farmers,not many going to be handing over to new entrants.
For a semi intensive productive upland farm like ours we will lose out.
It is another nail in the coffin for suckler cow keepers who have been subsidising them from their historic payments.
The new BPS rules are going to stop afforestation anywhere.
More than two trees are a group,if not on a hedge will have to be measured out and taken out of your claimed area.
I can see a lot of chainsaws working flat out all over Wales this year.
Penmoel
Member
@Yale I a sorry I cannot like either of your posts above.
They are in fact both very true, sucklers a trees will be going down here.
We are not semi intensive even, we operated under the old extensification level of 1.4 LU per ha and a lot less since yet our SFP will be down to 1/3rd of what it was.
ps. note to self... remember what silliam whale says "you are not a loser"
They are in fact both very true, sucklers a trees will be going down here.
We are not semi intensive even, we operated under the old extensification level of 1.4 LU per ha and a lot less since yet our SFP will be down to 1/3rd of what it was.
ps. note to self... remember what silliam whale says "you are not a loser"
SilliamWhale
Member
@Yale I a sorry I cannot like either of your posts above.
They are in fact both very true, sucklers a trees will be going down here.
We are not semi intensive even, we operated under the old extensification level of 1.4 LU per ha and a lot less since yet our SFP will be down to 1/3rd of what it was.
ps. note to self... remember what silliam whale says "you are not a loser"
If you want to start that again I will quite happily but you know we don't agree on it and you know you get frustrated when I disagree with you. To reiterate you cannot expect to get £390ha any more, its a new scheme not related to the old one so dont compare it as such.
Penmoel
Member
You accept then that you and I are now losers to Fair play to the uplands then, otherwise why in the OP do you call it odd?
As far as I can see the best we can now hope for is one payment level across Wales, otherwise its likely to be Non LFA and LFA which we leave us all a lot worse off. WAG don't seem confident that any imaginary line can define payment areas and fear another legal challenge.
All we can hope for on top of the one payment level is some meaningful Tapering of payment or "redistribution" as they now call it. Do you consider 54ha a small farm in Wales?
As far as I can see the best we can now hope for is one payment level across Wales, otherwise its likely to be Non LFA and LFA which we leave us all a lot worse off. WAG don't seem confident that any imaginary line can define payment areas and fear another legal challenge.
All we can hope for on top of the one payment level is some meaningful Tapering of payment or "redistribution" as they now call it. Do you consider 54ha a small farm in Wales?
Basically the farms which gain will not produce any more food as they tend historically not to be set up or be inclined.
The ones who will lose out will not be able to fund food production out of their own pocket,output from thes farms will be cut as they economise and cut their cloth.
Right or wrong subsidies encourage food production.
Under the new system agriculture in Wales could contract whilst moorland farmers become Ferrari owners.
The ones who will lose out will not be able to fund food production out of their own pocket,output from thes farms will be cut as they economise and cut their cloth.
Right or wrong subsidies encourage food production.
Under the new system agriculture in Wales could contract whilst moorland farmers become Ferrari owners.
SilliamWhale
Member
Its odd because its so radically different from 6 months ago and obviously rushed through. It also is radically different from neighbouring countries.
54ha small? Not sure its the median size farm. Tapering is a good idea I think.
Thick Farmer
Member
- Location
- West Wales
So roughly £50/acre. I assume that's before modulation?
Getting to the stage where it's not really worth filling out the forms!
Getting to the stage where it's not really worth filling out the forms!
TBH you're not far off the mark there.
- Location
- Ceredigion, wales
How would you like to see things pan out @Penmoel ?
The way that Alun Davies set the scheme up with a tenfold difference in payments between land that was above or below an imaginary line was totally wrong so I totally support the farmers who challenged the moorland line. I think if an ANC scheme had been set up to help those severely affected by the moorland line maybe there wouldn't even have been a legal challenge but Rebecca Evans threw that out.
As it happened we weren't losing out by a huge amount with the three tier system but who knows what will happen next. I just hope it's a simple system which can be implemented very quickly. We just can't plan ahead as things stand.
The way that Alun Davies set the scheme up with a tenfold difference in payments between land that was above or below an imaginary line was totally wrong so I totally support the farmers who challenged the moorland line. I think if an ANC scheme had been set up to help those severely affected by the moorland line maybe there wouldn't even have been a legal challenge but Rebecca Evans threw that out.
As it happened we weren't losing out by a huge amount with the three tier system but who knows what will happen next. I just hope it's a simple system which can be implemented very quickly. We just can't plan ahead as things stand.
Penmoel
Member
Make no mistake the Upland boys have fudged the whole lot of us, I would condemn their actions wholeheartedly. Additional help was going to be there for the upland though was it not, they have already been paid a fortune to destock, Glastir in the uplands was raking money in for them , even Dafydd Ceiro has cut the stock to nothing for the money they are paying him, they have scope in the number of acres they hold to take great advantage of area based schemes like Glastir.
This is from the sale particulars for Fagwyr, Ponterwyd, a neighbour to Dafydd with 650 acres....
GlastirThe farm was entered into Glastir scheme in 2014 for a period of 5 years. The annual payment is a sum of £23,458 per annum together with some additional income for capital fencing works.
There are some restrictions on fertilizer use on some parcels and the only stocking restriction is an the mountain. There is zero grazing over the winter and 88 ewes April to June reducing to 59 ewes July to September.
A copy of Glastir contract will be made available to bonafide parties.
http://www.morgananddavies.co.uk/Pr...rystwyth/Ponterwyd/Fagwyr-Fawr/MV3552562.aspx
They effectively doubled their SFP by going into Glastir and keeping 88 ewes instead 800, of course in addition they could go organic as they are anyway.
Its not going to be a simple system though is it, after all its probably not in WAG's interest to make it simple. They have already indicated that there is no chance of us getting payment in full in early December this year, due to greening and the grazed woodland issues. Talk of "tunnelling" payments will also confuse the whole thing.
Simple would be one payment rate across Wales, say £200ha on the first 54ha of everyone's claim, £100 ha on the next 100ha, £50ha on the next 54. full stop. Over 208 ha no more payment, you would be on £23,500 payment anyway. No need for anyone to consider capping as its there already.
How those figures work out in the overall budget I don't know, I cant think they would be far from the mark.
I am almost inclined to say keep it so simple and introduce the whole lot in year 1, no need to drag the pain out over 5 years.
Then give us fair crack at pillar 2 money without too many consultants advisors and NRW bods in the way
.Trouble is I think Andrew Slade and his team have other objectives, the need to drag the whole thing out as a huge problem this summer and for the next 4 years.
I hate long posts
Don't forget the powers that be can still use grazing classification to restrict payments.
However whether they do effectively is another question.
Let's say.
Heather 5% eligibility for payment,if that much.
Bracken 0%.
Gorse 3%.
Trees............let's not go there.
However whether they do effectively is another question.
Let's say.
Heather 5% eligibility for payment,if that much.
Bracken 0%.
Gorse 3%.
Trees............let's not go there.
- Location
- Ceredigion, wales
I agree with the first bit but I think they had good cause. An ANC scheme should have been bought in to ease the pain. Glastir payments merely compensate for loss of income due to stock reduction. The number of hoops to jump through before getting a Glastir payment is another sore point too.
Penmoel
Member
Going back to Fagwyr as an example, loss of income
You reckon he made £23k from 800 woolly Ponterwyd maggots. The place is 275 ha , 131ha of it was moorland and 124ha SDA so if there were stocking restrictions on the 131 he still 124 to farm and even on the £20ha payment rate the agents state this... Glastir should read goldmine for the large hill farms.The farm is registered under the Single Farm Payment Scheme. With regards to future payments the land at Fagwyr Fawr has been classified as 131 hectares of moor land and 124 hectares of STA land which equates to approximately 27,547 euro by 2019 or £22,038 at .80 conversion rate.
Thanks to "fair play for the uplands" that place will now get £35,475 basic payment
Only
Member
- Location
- Powys/Shropshire border
It's a bloody mess of major proportions I know of two farmers who produce sweet fa they are massive gains under the new flat rateGoing back to Fagwyr as an example, loss of income
The farm is registered under the Single Farm Payment Scheme. With regards to future payments the land at Fagwyr Fawr has been classified as 131 hectares of moor land and 124 hectares of STA land which equates to approximately 27,547 euro by 2019 or £22,038 at .80 conversion rate.
Thanks to "fair play for the uplands" that place will now get £35,475 basic payment
Will Blackburn
Member
- Location
- Cheshire
Funny set up, as an outsider when the higher ground got sweet FA they had Glastir to make up the difference, now they may get both while lowland farmers won't have the same top up options.