The regulations refer to tail docking and castration as a permitted mutilation.I couldn’t agree more, but keep seeing on the shedding Faceache group how such ‘mutilation’
, just isn’t necessary.
Mind, there are some on there that consider 90% O grade lambs is good going too…
The computer grading is definitely different from the human eye. Every one has been an R, usually get Us RS and the odd O.I couldn’t agree more, but keep seeing on the shedding Faceache group how such ‘mutilation’
Mind, there are some on there that consider 90% O grade lambs is good going too…
You need to join @Anymulewilldo ’s thread , you’ll blend right in there .
I haven’t logged in for ages either so thanks for the support !!
Not sure who you are BillDog but assuming you were the first trial we did with Vetmarker chutes we cracked the method in the end, and I remember your lambs rolling around thanks to ringing. Fitting Clips now as fast as ringing and a great deal better in terms of immediate recovery and resulting scar cleanliness (removing tail and scrotum in record time too). Niall Bowser has become our closest ally since ! His customers David MacTaggart (Hallrule), Rotmell Farming and the Freeland-Cook family in Yetholm to name a few - all fitted Clips not Rings.I did my trial with Brian using my chute. It was far too awkward, but mostly slow on nuts, and fine on the tails, but again just slower loading the pliars compared to using the rings.
With the chute , and a couple of folk to help, speed , and lamb flow is king . All jobs get done swiftly, and the lambs get paired back up with mum and back to their fields!
Let me know if I can help - www.clipfitter.co.uk tells you more, and I chat away on www.lambkind.co.uk. Some raw videos on Youtube at www.Clampeasy.com. Sorry about all the wwws ! [email protected] oh, and yes, before you ask, there is a water soluble (dishwasher tablet) version of the clip.
ClipFitter
ClipFitter is designed to fit specific clips although larger sizes can fit smaller clips too with care.The Double Decker style, supplied availablewww.clubtags.co.uk
Read an article about this yesterday on farming Scotland. Bit like a burdizzo and you can use it 3 months after the lambs are born.
What's peoples opinions on this?
Definitely something that will benefit hill farms and something I would use going forward. Heb lambs are a ballache to do when very young.
England would let young lambs benefit now (and they do, enormously - see below - outdoor tup lambs can be left behind after ringing - not with clips) but they are still making up their minds about following Scotland allowing older lambs. DEFRA now have all the data from SRUC and AWC's most recent review, so it shouldn't be too long - it's all very positive. Cost depends on size of clip/lamb and which material you choose. Between 30 to 50p exVAT. A set of all 3 Fitters £400 if you order 3 months in advance. Guaranteed delivery now creeping into April.
Available for ages to 3 months in Scotland still (2023) and no sign of that stopping. England may catch up soon now DEFRA have all the positive evidence from AWC and SRUC. QMS showing an interest too, and with some high profile fines for late ringing on the increase it must be worth a look ! www.Clipfitter.co.uk give you an overview.
Forgive me for being dim but i don't understand what the Graphs show could you explain them please ?
Not dim at all ... I should have explained - but Y axis is PAIN (measured using well established method by SRUC scientists and others) and X axis describes the pain observed from different treatments for the different age groups (under 7 days and 6 weeks). The tallest column (most pain) ws from RR Rubber Rings in both cases. "VET BEST" is the best a vet could do to make sure pain was minimised... so ClipFitter was better than VET BEST (anaesthetic, analgesic 5 minutes before a rubber ring) for youngsters but was beaten just by anaesthetic with analgesic 5 mins before a burdizzo on the older group. Nevertheless, compared to rings ClipFitter was outstanding in both groups and provides an equivalent degree of pain limitation to drugs, without the need for them or the vet. Any clearer - I was always good at confusing - thanks for asking !
Thanks but what is the 'no treatment 'column
The technicians lifted the lambs, and pretended to treat them then out them down again ! Basically just to see what effect simply handling the lambs had amongst the other effects of actually castrating/tailing them. The oldsters seemed to be a bit disturbed by being handled - although in terms of real life the differences at that level of behaviour were in reality negligible.Thanks but what is the 'no treatment 'column
Ah i see , yes always a certain amount of stress ,gathering, yarding handling and that aimed to show that part of it separated from the pain of the actual treatment.
For me, 'under 7 days' isn't very young at all so I'd be curious to know where between 0&7 days the test group sat. Has any research been done on 'under 7 hours' or thereby? I see limited to no measurable effects on the lambs doing them at that stage.
Thanks to you too, although I’m afraid I’m not qualified to give a definitive answer on either. SAC consulting I am sure could help. Professor Cathy Dwyer was in charge of our trials in 2018 and 2022. I also understand that visible pain behaviour isn’t always the full story hence our trial also measured on going effects like time for tails and scrotum to come off and quality of repair/scarring - all indicating the levels of underlying chronic distress. DLWG improvements and the obvious benefit of being able to able to choose tup lambs to keep at a later age are addition benefits of leaving these invasive procedures as long as possible.
I kind of assumed that sort of thing (age, test methods) would have been detailed in the reports, and that perhaps you would be prepared to share?
Not relevant to most shepherds though - very few breeders produce candidates for breeding sires. For me, undertaking these procedures as early as possible (as soon as the navel is dry) reduces the trauma to the animal - hence my asking how old the test subjects were. To suggest that this could be delayed for welfare reasons goes against good practice and I find that quite confusing.
They were blackies for a start, and a range of ages from probably 2 to 7 days but all within the current 7 day guideline for using rings. I suggested SAC Consulting simply because they may be able to explain pain measurement to you better than me - but it's probably more a VET education that other. This site was developed to help vets get to grips with the method https://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalpain/ and it was developed by Prof Vince Molony and Joyce Kent both of whom were seconded for our trials. I'll leave you to discuss your views on what's best with others. I am simply trying to produce an alernative to rings. You should try clips on your fresh lambs and stop using rings. You may have to sooner or later. Thanks for your queries !
If you could give a link to the paper that your bar chart came from then that would be useful. From my scan, I don't see anything in the link with a numerical analysis beyond a 1-10 granularity and yet your picture indicates 1-240 at least.
