My mistake, from the Grocer Bartletts have 80% of Sainsbury’s own brand spuds, the point still stands though. Small suppliers may or may not be great but they don’t have the resources that come from larger scale business. Can’t see large customers taking from massively extended numbers of suppliers. Why work with 200 farmer suppliers when you can work with, say, 3? Just the admin will be prohibitive (cost and procedure). Presumably, we will have 200 pack houses too? How is the increased cost from loss of scale efficiency going to be found? General taxation?
A petition worth signing I think.
- Thread starter Dan Powell
- Start date
I don't have to. They openly acknowledge the fact themselves. In various documents relating to the WWF basket, Tesco repeatedly refer to 'pre-competitive collaboration'. Pre-competitive collaboration is one of the defining characteristics of a cartel.
So you accept that the GCA is irrelevant to the issues this petition seeks to address, but you think that the adjudicator will refer the issues to the Office of Fair Trading. Any evidence to support that ?
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on the other hand, you supply from just 3 and one goes bust? or drops your contract?
if you haven't supported the wider industry, then who do you turn to? especially if you contract terms are terrible and only the largest of suppliers can manage with those terms.
who pays, is your next question, for the increased costs from loss of efficiencies of scale.
are there true lower costs from bigger scales or is it the ability to profit at lower margins?
I would say it's the ability to take less profit per tonne, I actually think their costs and scale work against them having the lowest overheads.
small farmer has 5 acres of potatoes, has £2k or less in tackle to plant and lift them all paid for likely 10 years plus old, spray costs and seed, Fert cost are similar.
who can sell them cheapest? what's wrong with 1000, 5 acres farms suppling a coop or wholesaler and supermarkets buy from them? and what wrong with that contract between the coop or wholesaler offering farmers a good contract that offers fair prices to those farmers?
there were lots of farms with 40-50 acres of potatoes now that's gone. most that are left are 400 acres plus potato farmers.
then it's the question the video asks most farmers are on shaky grounds profit wise, so now is the time to make sure farmers are getting a fair bite of the retail price with well written contracts that protect them from the supermarket's stupidity.
in the end, food prices in the retail end, has to pass down a profit to the farmer, contacts now often force suppliers to open their books to supermarkets why would they want that?
Grocer Bartletts, do they grow all of the potatoes or grow some, but supply them form others as well so are also a wholesaler umbrella name to put on packaging?
if you want a second topic eggs, they increased in price for everyone but the producer, retail charged more, wholesalers sold them for more to supermarkets but the farmers were stuck losing money. were those contracts fair?
Quite.
- The GCA is irrelevant to this debate.
- The idea that this petition is needed to protect UK agriculture is both irrelevant to 99.9% of farming businesses and not backed up by any evidence that the 0.1% need our support.
Quite. Guy Singh-Watson says that he wants to 'save Britain's family farms'. He isn't going to achieve that by sending begging letters to the cartel. He has to take a step back and understand that the issue - the only issue - is the structure of the food chain.
I shared the link, that's what they have to do if they find issues to address. and its clear there is an issue.
to quote the link again.
Recommendations to Office of Fair Trading
If the Adjudicator considers it appropriate for any changes to be made to the Groceries Code, he or she must recommend them to the Office of Fair Trading.and no I do not accept that the GCA is irrelevant to the issues this petition seeks to address its 100% in their remit. see link below.
they want fair contracts and the GCA is the first step.
I am not sure if you watched the video or not, and understand how supermarkets are actually operating as buyers. while some farmers are under direct contract, they also buy from the open market or have supply contracts with Wholsalers that buy from the open market. this is why contracts are not valid, if the contracted price is undercut by open markets prices what do you think they do?
this happens for crisp potato growers and lots of others, contracts are not worth the paper they are printed on so is no surprise we have what we have, but it all starts with contracts that supermarkets create. fix those and you have a better base to fix the rest.
GCA scope
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...of-practice/groceries-supply-code-of-practice
Retailer means any person carrying on a business in the UK for the retail supply of Groceries
I will add retail is a wide umbrella and if you want to see farmers multiply the number of outlets and farm suppliers, if contracts are involved which is often needed for a farm to invest into, then this dialog while you suggest its only 0.1% of farmers right now, this would also be applicable if we got what you would like to see a far greater number of farmers and retailers as they all will fall under its umbrella. many farmers are fearful of contracts as they often only really apply to them.
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Suffolk Serf
Member
- Location
- Bury/Thetford
The Albert Bartlett potato business is completely separate from the Bartlett root veg operation, which is now closed if I remember correctly. All part of the same family of course and were once the same firm.
Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn't asking for evidence that the mechanism exists for the GCA to refer stuff to the OFT. I was asking for evidence that it has happened.
- Location
- Exeter, Devon
You still haven’t told us any of your ideas on how to change the structure of the food chain……
there can be a first time for everything, even if it hasn't done so before, (no clue if it has reported anything before, or not, but it can) so as the meeting set for Jan 22nd 2024 maybe wait, and see? they are in the same department to the GSCOP and trading standards so all the independent GCA needs to do is report it which is what they are mandated to do, in there code.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-response-on-groceries-code-adjudicator-consultation
The GCA will have the power to receive complaints about the way supermarkets interact with their primary suppliers from anyone in the supply chain at home or overseas, and deal with them anonymously. This includes farmers who may not directly supply the large supermarkets.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...past-and-looks-to-future-at-annual-conference
https://assets.publishing.service.g...nference_2023__YouGov_survey_presentation.pdf
from the looks they are doing their job and taking the suppliers complaints forward, if that forces them to seek new powers or just enforce existing ones is their call.
the question is what do they need to do to make things better that is in their remit and scope to ask for that is not already covered by their powers.
A significant proportion of my posts on here, are on how we change the structure of the food chain.
To summarize one issue: We have to halt and reverse the loss of the small/local/home kill abattoirs. I have written in some detail on how we achieve that. Not my ideas, rather I have relayed the work of the two organisations that are doing the real work on this, the Abattoir Sector Group and Local Abattoirs are Key. I am in dialogue, on behalf of the BFU, with Minister Spencer on this issue. Updates on progress on this issue are posted in both the 'lack of local abattoirs' thread and the BFU section, as appropriate.
That's one action we need to achieve. There are a myriad of others we can discuss. What there isn't, is a silver bullet. We didn't get where we are today (a cartel) through one individual bad turn, but rather it has been a succession of bad turns over many years. Nudge theory is our friend.
Then it is time to put some historical context on all this:
When Tony Blair was PM, he made the throwaway comment that 'the supermarkets have the farmers in an arm-lock'. The environmental/social justice movement picked up on this, and formed the Breaking The Arm-lock Alliance. Membership was some of the leading campaign organisations on food/farming/the environment, plus some august farming bodies such as the Independent Fruit Growers. The initiative was coordinated by Sustain.
You will see that Sustain are one of the supporters of Guy's petition. Sustain are great, but if they were a political party they would be the Lib Dems; where they want to get to is lovely, but they don't have a scooby how to actually get there. The Breaking The Arm-Lock Alliance obsessed over the need for an adjudicator to make the supermarkets be nice to farmers. (Memory fades, I can't remember whether the GCA already existed and the call was for it to be beefed up, or whether the alliance wanted the post to be created).
Anyway, it went nowhere. David Handley and one of his lieutenants came to one of the meetings. There being no flies on Mr Handley he could quickly see it was going nowhere and he and his lieutenant were gone. Interestingly, Tim Lang was in on these meetings. Interesting because, whilst he didn't get it at the time he does now get it. He is now calling for a restructuring of our food system, for a reinvention of the wholesale market, for diversity. He has worked out that asking the cartel to play fair is an irrelevant answer to the wrong question. Joanna Blythman was also at these meetings; anyone wants to read a journalist who understands where our food system has gone wrong, read Joanna.
Has Guy had it explained to him that we have been here before ? Has he had it explained to him why expecting the GCA/ OFT to ride to the rescue of 'Britain's family farms' is a triumph of hope over experience ? Well, he has now.
For some having it explained and seeing it are often miles a part, have you also considered that he knows what responce he will get, but that’s the point?
he wants to expose how toothless the system is and how real reform is needed? How even with these systems in place since 2014 nothing has improved.
How do you get that without very publicly putting them on the spot if they do what they always do then he can call for reform on a platform he has built, but only after showing the GCA and GSCOP are not working or don’t have the right aims.
if he kicked up a stink they would just say you need to go to the GCA and get your case looked at by the GSCOP, and let the media cry die down. But if he starts with that and they fail to deliver then that’s a story with legs.
I normally get my first hand judgment of supermarkets from farmers that actually do supply them. Sadly all the ones that did are now out of business.
while my area did have a lot of root crop growers of, cabbages, carrots, red beet, leaks, onions, swedes, and sprouts etc etc, most are gone, despite the land being more than capable of doing so. We have potatoes but not much else.
All the growers got bigger and specialised, more, and more, then went bust.
we used to have a stall/farm shop, but like others in the area, we all closed mostly, due to theft from the stalls money and produce, even with cameras it still happens at the one remaining. And they only sell a limited range of stuff eggs mostly. And the fact local outlets dried up, or wanted only large loads at a time, that we were not scaled to deliver.
the world is changing and the worlds relationship with food and farmers needs to change.
Anything that pushes that point home is worth a shot even if the outcome is a forgone conclusion, because change is needed.
so while his campaign and meeting may well be pointless, maybe that’s the point.
I have often said the only way forward is to see better contracts prices at the farm gate, but the contract also has to be worth signing.
only then can COOP’s form So smaller farmers can grow produce at smaller scales to fill larger contracts that the supermarkets and wholesale outlets want.
the problems is that space is filled with pack houses, that also have no respect for the farmers, so transparent systems need to be in place so cost of production has a place
In reality contracts are great if they work.
I have said before I actually like British sugars system of A,B,C contracts.
With no direct penalties for under supply but penalties for over supply. The penalties for under supply are the potential loss or reductions future contracts.
this has allowed a wide number of small farms to supply them for many many year's, and while I am sure there has been consolidation due to the farming changes in the industry as a whole, and the way they operate there factories. It has seen less change than the vegetable market side.
but for any new system it has to be put on a solid base and the basic contract is that base, so I see why he thinks it is important to make this stand.
So Guy has organized this petition not because he thinks it will achieve anything positive for the industry, but because he wants to expose the failings in today's food system ?
Nah. That would be an abuse of 100,000 signatories trust, he is far too honourable a person to do that. He has organised this petition because he hasn't thought about stuff hard enough.
your right that was not my point, he wants to improve things, but also knows that you have to use the system in place to at least start that, does he want a good outcome to his dialog yes, will he get one, you think not.
I think regardless of the outcome he will move forward.
you think.
I think your being short sighted, you suspect an outcome but don't know, what the outcome will be, or where things will go if he doesn't get what he is trying to get from the GCA.
to be honest I am happy he is trying. what you think you have said, but I don't see why.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-help-farmers-and-growers-in-the-food-supply-chain
We have done this. We have been here 20 years ago. There is nothing that Guy can learn from this exercise that we don't already know.
6k views. They can't all be Clive bots. We need folks to explain how this petition is going to help their business.
visions are great, and so far, they have delivered what change?
and you do see while supermarkets are the worst, that farming does have to work with them, right?
the vast majority of people will always buy from them so, finding a positive way for farming to work with them is always going to be needed.
i would suggest the linked PDF you shared would mean his dialog maybe better received, than you think,
https://d1hu4133i4rt3z.cloudfront.net/attachments/1155/1155117-3bd70a978b2c3d1af8f367ce6adc59f0.pdf
2.2 Is existing regulation appropriate, for example the Groceries Supply Code of Practice and the Groceries Code Adjudicator for supermarkets’ direct suppliers, as well as the Secretary of State’s powers under Part 3 of the Agriculture Act 2020? The remit of Groceries Code Adjudicator is too narrow: indirect suppliers to the supermarkets are not covered by the code of practice nor are price negotiations. This means most farmers are not protected. The fair dealing clause in the Agriculture Act 2020, if used effectively, could lead to new Statutory Codes of Practice for all sectors.
this may also show that the GSCP may get its remit expanded so it can help. so, if he gets better contracts from his dialog when the GSCP remit is expanded even if not soon, it will help a wider group of farmers in the end.
The LWA have been working on this for 5 minutes in the scheme of things, and, more importantly, on their own. Mainstream ag - that will be folks on here - needs to embrace the message that the LWA are putting out there with these documents: We have to reintroduce diversity to our food system. The only ray of hope on that score is the BFU.
(says with trepidation) you need to give your definition of 'supermarket'. It will be different from mine, so we can't really discuss that point.
The LWA responded to the questions as asked by the select committee, whilst knowing that they were too narrow and have no relevance to the changes needed. Personally I don't bother, I just tell them what they need to be told. I'm not sure it is helpful to play the shuffling the deckchairs game with MP's, it just gives them an excuse to say 'consultation box ticked' and leave things as they are.