Dealing with depression - suicidal thoughts - Join the conversation (including helpline details)

[kiwi pom]

I think the elephant in the room with these farm succession things is if they do work out you get to be in charge of quite a lot of money, that you perhaps couldn't get if you weren't part of the family farm.
It's the only reason I can think of for people staying put.
It's also why siblings come back hoping for a share.

If things work out @DefenderDave will you and your wife end up in sole charge of the farm any day soon?

 

[teslacoils]

And what if it does?

It can only help point out what's obvious to you.

If it does while you're away two days, but you have a bad time on those 363 days, it's time to have a serious chat. Then stay or move on. Don't just let it simmer.

 

[DrWazzock]

You only live once. There won’t be a re run. So within reason try to chose a path that’s as good as it can be. By the same token beware of thinking “well I only need to hang in there for 20 years” and things will be fine.” Because one day you wake up, you are 55 years old and you realise your best years have been spent just hanging in there not actually fulfilling your potential.
Some people, myself probably included, aren’t actually that ambitious and are satisfied bumbling along doing something reasonably predictable.
Choosing the right career path is quite a complex business dependent on many factors but if you really aren’t enjoying what you are doing for more than half the time then seriously consider doing something else.

 

[DefenderDave]

Why can't you just go to the pub?

I reiterate the "grab a bag and have a weekend away". See you mates. Drop in on the parents. FFS it's only a farm and it won't break without you....

I think it’s hard to put yourself in someone else’s shoes just from a forum post. We have lost our gfw and not replaced him, the weather being crap and other projects which have mounted up has led to being busier than we should be.
Yes the farm will still be here and I do plan to go as soon as I can. This will help but the following week I’m back to square one.

it’s easy to say just go to the pub but I know very few up here or I have to drive a few hours to meet with my friends from where I go up.

I think the elephant in the room with these farm succession things is if they do work out you get to be in charge of quite a lot of money, that you perhaps couldn't get if you weren't part of the family farm.
It's the only reason I can think of for people staying put.
It's also why siblings come back hoping for a share.

If things work out @DefenderDave will you and your wife end up in sole charge of the farm any day soon?

it’s a difficult one as her dad hasn’t has only just got sole charge of the farm in his late 50s. He has been bossed around by his parents his entire life. They passed a couple of years ago and now he finally has the reigns he doesn’t really know how to run a business. We are trying to help him but he probably feels like we trying to take it off him hence fighting all our ideas.

its all just been unfortunate timing with the reduction in subsidies as we haven’t got the timescale to transition the business into a viable one.

Like everyones situation it isn’t just black and white, and it’s a lot more complicated than I can properly put on a forum.

 

[kiwi pom]

I think it’s hard to put yourself in someone else’s shoes just from a forum post. We have lost our gfw and not replaced him, the weather being crap and other projects which have mounted up has led to being busier than we should be.
Yes the farm will still be here and I do plan to go as soon as I can. This will help but the following week I’m back to square one.

it’s easy to say just go to the pub but I know very few up here or I have to drive a few hours to meet with my friends from where I go up.



it’s a difficult one as her dad hasn’t has only just got sole charge of the farm in his late 50s. He has been bossed around by his parents his entire life. They passed a couple of years ago and now he finally has the reigns he doesn’t really know how to run a business. We are trying to help him but he probably feels like we trying to take it off him hence fighting all our ideas.

its all just been unfortunate timing with the reduction in subsidies as we haven’t got the timescale to transition the business into a viable one.

Like everyones situation it isn’t just black and white, and it’s a lot more complicated than I can properly put on a forum.

Every individual thinks differently and everyone's situation is different.
Only you and your wife know your real situation, your future prospects with or without the farm and what you are willing to put up with.
I do think you need to sit down with your wife and her father and talk about your issues, which are certainly valid.
Your father-in-law might have concerns of his own that you should talk about too.
Good luck.

 

[bobajob]

I think it’s hard to put yourself in someone else’s shoes just from a forum post. We have lost our gfw and not replaced him, the weather being crap and other projects which have mounted up has led to being busier than we should be.
Yes the farm will still be here and I do plan to go as soon as I can. This will help but the following week I’m back to square one.

it’s easy to say just go to the pub but I know very few up here or I have to drive a few hours to meet with my friends from where I go up.



it’s a difficult one as her dad hasn’t has only just got sole charge of the farm in his late 50s. He has been bossed around by his parents his entire life. They passed a couple of years ago and now he finally has the reigns he doesn’t really know how to run a business. We are trying to help him but he probably feels like we trying to take it off him hence fighting all our ideas.

its all just been unfortunate timing with the reduction in subsidies as we haven’t got the timescale to transition the business into a viable one.

Like everyones situation it isn’t just black and white, and it’s a lot more complicated than I can properly put on a forum.

It might be worth having an informal chat with someone like heather wildman, she does a lot of work on succession planning. im sure she's come across these situations before and can offer some good advice.

 

[DrWazzock]

You need to think of yourself.
What are you personally building for yourself by working for practically nothing for the in laws?
Nothing I’d say, as without any other kind of written profit sharing agreement, as things stand your wife and her brother will inherit the farm in equal shares. Even if the brother never returns he’ll most likely still inherit haif.. You’ll inherit nothing. You will have worked for virtually nothing other than bed and board for say another 30 years if the business even survives that long. If your marriage breaks up then you’ll be out with nothing as well.
So if I were you I’d be working in a job off farm building up your own savings/pension/paying off a mortgage so you’ve your own independent assets off farm. That way you are not beholden to the in laws and when your FIL passes you will be better placed to buy out the brothers share.
Speaking from experience I’m glad I didn’t return until I was 35. By then I’d bought my own property off farm and still have it. So I’ve a fallback if this place goes belly up. Also if I’d returned earlier there simply wouldn’t have been the income to go round as my father was less than pension age at that point and still 100% active and in charge along with my brother. It was only when my father was into his seventies that he was willing to relinquish some control. I don’t hold that against him. He was a very good businessman and farmer. It was his farm that he’d built up.
That’s just another perspective. Don’t know if it adds much because as you rightly say everybody’s situation is quite different. Anyway good luck and I hope things work out for you.

 

[teslacoils]

Iike everyones situation it isn’t just black and white, and it’s a lot more complicated than I can properly put on a forum.

I mean, I agree that after my own situation being frustratingly shitty, I was ace at telling myself that there were all these reasons why I couldn't change it.

There are none on here that can't spot a FFF...

Farming
Family
f**kabout

You've all these ties - spouse, fam, mortgage, isolated etc - but the fact is you tell yourself there's nothing can be done. Seventeen percent of working age adults are on antidepressants. Mr Dr said basically take the drugs and carry on, of don't and fix what you know makes you sad.

I'm not being all sage-like. But you've mentioned the issues, so you sort them, or you don't. Get the kettle on a have that chat. Because if you don't you'll find an excuse and be still in the same position in ten years.

 

[kiwi pom]

It might be worth having an informal chat with someone like heather wildman, she does a lot of work on succession planning. im sure she's come across these situations before and can offer some good advice.

I see where you are coming from but that might be seen as interfering too much as well. His father-in-law has only just got hold of the reins, it's his now (as far as we know) he can do what he likes with it, including selling it.

I think that's the thing the next generation forget. They shouldn't be strung along of course, but It's not theirs to plan the future with.
At least 2 sides to everything.

The immediate worry here is the mental toll it is taking on the son in law of the owner. (partners of farming children are often disliked on TFF for their interfering ways when it comes to succession, interestingly not the case here, perhaps because the farming heir is female?)
A good meeting between family is I think in order before bringing in "experts".

 

[DrWazzock]

It’s a fact with a farm that it cannot be divided up equally and fairly to all siblings and continue as a viable commercial enterprise providing a living for all those siblings unless it’s a very large one nowadays or unless perhaps it’s used as a base for profitable diversifications. Sure it can be sold so everybody gets their rightful share out but more often than not if it’s to continue then somebody has to essentially give up their “rightful” inheritance and that nowadays is less and less likely. If my many aunts had all wanted a share out we’d have been stuffed. If my uncle hadn’t retired before land prices went through the roof we’d have been stuffed. That’s the truth of it and I’m grateful to all of them. As the uncle with no kids I hope to be able to relinquish my share on favourable terms for my niece and nephew to leave the business as a going concern. That’s why I retain my own property off farm and it’s also somewhere for my wife to go if I die first. We had the experts in years ago but they got nowhere. It was only when goodwill was exercised that anything progressed and unfortunately nowadays goodwill is in short supply.
My advice would be not to rely on the farm or the in laws and try to build assets and to some extent a life off farm. That doesn’t mean you have to abandon the farm (or your wife and in laws) and if it comes good with the farm so much the better. But building at least something for yourself off farm, even part time, will build something for yourself and is a boost to confidence security and your self esteem.
Just my view. Take it with a large pinch of salt.

 

[DrWazzock]

The only time I ever made any serious money was working off farm.

 

[teslacoils]

The only time I ever made any serious money was working off farm.

The only time I made any serious money was when I stopped farming. Going back into it was the error. Or rather, a gamble.

 

[DrWazzock]

The less I do and spend on the farm other than the absolute necessities,(growing the crops) the more profit I make, simply because input costs and overhead costs can’t be justified against grain prices.
I took two old tyres for recycling last month. £100 plus time and diesel. Shouldn’t have bothered.
Even if I worked 50% more time on the farm, attended every seminar and training course going, bought every bit of grant funded kit available I’d hardly increase my profit at all, as the biggest limiting factor is weather and poor commodity prices.
Since cutting back, so no cattle and no beet but more cereals due to spending more time looking after the Mrs, my farming workload has probably halved but my arable profits actually remain the same. If I put the lot into schemes I dare say I’d be just as well off but I like to feel useful.
Farming is that kind of business. What you make is decided by outside influences such as weather and markets and policymakers not actually by how hard you work or how innovative you are, above a certain baseline. You can work 50% harder in farming for no extra income on a fixed farm size. The only real extra money comes from either non farming diversification or outside work.

 

[Christoph1945]

The less I do and spend on the farm other than the absolute necessities,(growing the crops) the more profit I make, simply because input costs and overhead costs can’t be justified against grain prices.
I took two old tyres for recycling last month. £100 plus time and diesel. Shouldn’t have bothered.
Even if I worked 50% more time on the farm, attended every seminar and training course going, bought every bit of grant funded kit available I’d hardly increase my profit at all, as the biggest limiting factor is weather and poor commodity prices.
Since cutting back, so no cattle and no beet but more cereals due to spending more time looking after the Mrs, my farming workload has probably halved but my arable profits actually remain the same. If I put the lot into schemes I dare say I’d be just as well off but I like to feel useful.
Farming is that kind of business. What you make is decided by outside influences such as weather and markets and policymakers not actually by how hard you work or how innovative you are, above a certain baseline. You can work 50% harder in farming for no extra income on a fixed farm size. The only real extra money comes from either non farming diversification or outside work.

Sounds like a hard pill to swallow!

 

[Bury the Trash]

The only real extra money comes from either non farming diversification or outside work.

yes and imo and ime i think there should be more honesty about this fact.
wether its inherited things to greater or lessor degrees including or house building plots sodl off old money carried over or cottages to let or the many other ways that some have subsidised their farming over they years and now.
but a lot wont admit it they will just claim to be better farmers,or work harder or faster. thats why they have more money or bigger tractor whatever.i suppose that can be done to suppress other, like a form of bullying even so they get more for themselves or have more controll, ego driven as well .
quite often it arisesfrom what ive seen over the years and imo its very dishonest at least and not helpful to those genuinely struggling without those privileges. and new entrants with out the advantages
but then its the way of the world i guess not unique to farming either.

 

[Whitewalker]

I mean, I agree that after my own situation being frustratingly shitty, I was ace at telling myself that there were all these reasons why I couldn't change it.

There are none on here that can't spot a FFF...

Farming
Family
f**kabout

You've all these ties - spouse, fam, mortgage, isolated etc - but the fact is you tell yourself there's nothing can be done. Seventeen percent of working age adults are on antidepressants. Mr Dr said basically take the drugs and carry on, of don't and fix what you know makes you sad.

I'm not being all sage-like. But you've mentioned the issues, so you sort them, or you don't. Get the kettle on a have that chat. Because if you don't you'll find an excuse and be still in the same position in ten years.

I would agree , have the chat if it all goes pear shape there's your decision made , deal with the aftermath but at least you challenged it head on

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

From Saving Lives to Taking My Own

Listen to this episode from Near Death on Spotify. Warning: Upsetting content from the outset.Liz McConaghy deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan with the RAF as a chinook helicopter crewman.She regularly witnessed death and trauma while picking up seriously injured soldiers from the battlefield...

open.spotify.com

Just sharing this podcast I listened to earlier. Some might find Liz McConaghy's viewpoint useful.

She nearly died as crew in a MERT Chinook in Afghanistan, left the RAF with physical and mental health problems and eventually attempted to end her life. Her take on it all is thoughtful and valuable, especially on her recovery now.

 

[DrWazzock]

yes and imo and ime i think there should be more honesty about this fact.
wether its inherited things to greater or lessor degrees including or house building plots sodl off old money carried over or cottages to let or the many other ways that some have subsidised their farming over they years and now.
but a lot wont admit it they will just claim to be better farmers,or work harder or faster. thats why they have more money or bigger tractor whatever.i suppose that can be done to suppress other, like a form of bullying even so they get more for themselves or have more controll, ego driven as well .
quite often it arisesfrom what ive seen over the years and imo its very dishonest at least and not helpful to those genuinely struggling without those privileges. and new entrants with out the advantages
but then its the way of the world i guess not unique to farming either.

Tens of thousands of acres in this county are being farmed on the proceeds of other industries : vacuum cleaners, house building, development land sales. Many of the owners are very old people indulging a dream or hobby on a grand scale. They wouldn’t last 5 minutes in farming if they didn’t have this vast amount of outside money behind them. It’s really one big hobby, even at scale, a bit like King George III’s model farm and we know how he ended up!

 

[czechmate]

Tens of thousands of acres in this county are being farmed on the proceeds of other industries : vacuum cleaners, house building, development land sales. Many of the owners are very old people indulging a dream or hobby on a grand scale. They wouldn’t last 5 minutes in farming if they didn’t have this vast amount of outside money behind them. It’s really one big hobby, even at scale, a bit like King George III’s model farm and we know how he ended up!

Careful, your starting to sound a bit like… “oh, you have to be born into farming to be a proper farmer “

 

[DrWazzock]

Careful, your starting to sound a bit like… “oh, you have to be born into farming to be a proper farmer “

I’d say “proper” farmers are few and far between : that is farmers who built a business and expanded it on the proceeds of farming alone. I know of a few : mostly tenants who really do the job properly. They can’t afford to mess about. Tenants are in my view proper farmers. I don’t think I’d last long paying a rent, not on this farm anyway.
Since I left engineering 20 years ago, I have learned that “investing” in farming rarely gives a decent return but better sheds and equipment make the job easier. You never see the investment back though. Buying land is a different matter but it’s not farming. It’s been a good investment for those who bought early but isn’t really connected to farming profitability.
When you look at what was the farming estate of this village it’s had the equivalent of millions sunk into it by investors from other industries for the past 500 years and every 150 years it’s been reduced to absolute ruin by agricultural commodity price cycles.