3 year herbal ley break crop

dontknowanything · Sep 7, 2013

Not sure which forum this should go in really.

Last week I planted a legume rich herbal ley into an 18ha field, coming out of WOSR. This was min tilled, and sprayed off before drilling. It has therefore had two flushes to try and get rid of volunteer rape. I'm pretty nervous about the establishment, but hopefully it comes up OK. I messed up the seed rate and put it on 20% too light, but decided to go with that as it went in quite early. Yesterday we had 2mm of rain, which did wet the top bit of soil, where hopefully the seeds are lurking.

This field has a yield average of 98% over the last 10 years. On one side is a field which yields 103%, which I don't consider to be significantly different - I think these two fields are the same. On the other side is a field that was in pasture until 25 years ago. It yields 115%, and it the best field on the farm - this year it produced 11.5t/ha of wheat. My plan is to see if I can make the field now going into grass as good as its stellar neighbour. I will arrange the rotation so that in 2017 they all have first wheats grown on them.

I plan to use zero inputs for the three years; no fertiliser, no tractors, no diesel, no pesticides. It will primarily be mob stocked, apart from when it isn't practical. It's not impossible that in this time I will change my mind and decide to put on some P&K if I want to build indices.

I will update this thread with photos as time goes on.

Tim May · Sep 7, 2013

Good luck with this what was the mix you went for. Also have you taken any samples to do a comparison between now and three years time. We've got the wildlife trust doing loads of monitoring and also doing some albrecht and leaf samples. Plan on the same input regime as you.

dontknowanything · Sep 7, 2013

Diploid late perennial ryegrass
Tetraploid late perennial ryegrass
Timothy
Red clover
Three varieties White clover
Alsike
Birdsfoot trefoil
Sainfoin
Cocksfoot
Chicory

I haven't taken any samples, but I do intend to. If I can get the wildlife trust to do it for me then all the better. I'll get in touch with them next week and see if they are interested

Tim May · Sep 7, 2013

Do you know what chicory you've got I think I have at least 3 maybe 4 there's one which seems much better in that it hasn't bolted the other two have. I think its a kiwi one called purna or something similar. Heard recently that the others are used to bulk up the seed.

dontknowanything · Sep 7, 2013

Tim May said:
Do you know what chicory you've got I think I have at least 3 maybe 4 there's one which seems much better in that it hasn't bolted the other two have. I think its a kiwi one called purna or something similar. Heard recently that the others are used to bulk up the seed.

no idea

JNG · Sep 8, 2013

This is long term thinking @dontknowanything, something we should all do more of, cereal margins are tight and its only high yielding sites that are making us money and its difficult to turn a low yielding site to a high yielding one without drastic action. Had a poor field a few years ago and put it down to red clover silage for 3 seasons, took two cuts and mulched or grazed in the Autumn, applied more organic matter than silage removed on a dry matter basis to cover offtake in either poultry manure/FYM or spent mushroom compost. Result a field that was near top of farm yields compared from one of our worst which it was before, a second field has been done now just finished 3 seasons and have just sprayed off the silage to drill wheat the end of month. Problem is only small fields (2-3% arable area) need courage to put down larger area.

Tim May · Sep 8, 2013

I wish someone else would join me over the next couple of years but its a leap of faith until we get some results. We're talking 8 years on our system 4 yrs grass 4 yrs crop to see the results. I'm sure it's right and we'll look back on the last 50 years as an experiment

JNG · Sep 8, 2013

Alot of arable farmers have a fixed cost structure for X number of Ha, by not cropping an area you increase the fixed costs on areas still cropped. It is a bit easier when you have a mixed farm as some use can be gained from sites where fertility building is being done and even increase the benefits! I have no doubt you are on the correct track and I think others will have to follow in time but It will take a bit of accountancy planning IMO.

Treemover · Sep 8, 2013

It's not that far from what I'm trying to do here! Were organic dairying, but rotating with oats, arable silage etc.

My aim is to get maximum yields, whether grass or corn, but the only way I can achieve it is via rotation.

I'm devil worshipping using a plough, but one crop I'm going to try is brassica . Supposed to be a soil improver!! Can't imagine winter poaching being too great, but following spring oats will tell all?

dontknowanything · Sep 8, 2013

JNG said:
ts only high yielding sites that are making us money and its difficult to turn a low yielding site to a high yielding one without drastic action.

I couldn't say this a poor field with a straight face. It yielded 4.45t/ha of OSR this year, and if it had been in 1st wheat it would have done over 10t/ha easily. There are fields on the farm which are more deserving of the attention, but I have chosen this one because I can compare it more relevantly with it neighbours, and also it is next to my main paddock (and my house!)

Treemover said:
but one crop I'm going to try is brassica . Supposed to be a soil improver!!

Others know a lot more than me, but brassicas do not really associate with mycorrhizae, which is a negative if hey are panted in monoculture.

dontknowanything · Sep 8, 2013

Stuff coming up now. There is some OSR too, my nightmare is that I haven't killed enough of it off and it swamps the ley mix

Tim May · Sep 8, 2013

We've been fighting that too for a while had to top some off now we're grazing it hard agronomist recons it will go over the winter in the meantime its making some good root chanels for next springs grass roots to go down. I thought hog weed was going to be a problem but the sheep go mad for it as soon ad they go into a new block.

dontknowanything · Sep 8, 2013

I don't mind anything being in there as long as it isn't in very large quantities. I'm confident the mob will take it out, especially OSR!

Treemover · Sep 8, 2013

dontknowanything said:
I couldn't say this a poor field with a straight face. It yielded 4.45t/ha of OSR this year, and if it had been in 1st wheat it would have done over 10t/ha easily. There are fields on the farm which are more deserving of the attention, but I have chosen this one because I can compare it more relevantly with it neighbours, and also it is next to my main paddock (and my house!)

Others know a lot more than me, but brassicas do not really associate with mycorrhizae, which is a negative if hey are panted in monoculture.

The rape/swede etc doesn't do anything much, but the daily crap exiting the animals is the benefit. For us it's a double benefit, but I just hope it doesn't ruin soil structure??

BSH · Sep 8, 2013

Tim May said:
I wish someone else would join me over the next couple of years but its a leap of faith until we get some results. We're talking 8 years on our system 4 yrs grass 4 yrs crop to see the results. I'm sure it's right and we'll look back on the last 50 years as an experiment

Tim, What will your rotation be in the arable cropping years? My inclination is not to have leys, but instead use green manures one year in four and mob stock them. That does however mean that you need enough rough grazing outside the arable area which may not be the case in every situation.

Tim May · Sep 8, 2013

BSH said:
Tim, What will your rotation be in the arable cropping years? My inclination is not to have leys, but instead use green manures one year in four and mob stock them. That does however mean that you need enough rough grazing outside the arable area which may not be the case in every situation.

At the moment I'm looking at osr dd into the ex ley late july letting some clovers remain as a companion crop. Then seed hybrid w barley which pays the same as 1st wheat then osr again with companion crop then possibly a stubble turnip undersown sprind barley or another seed w barley with autumn drilled grass or maybe spring undersow into the winter barley after grazing. All dd. Not worried about clubroot or grass weed control because of calcum levels in the soil and the following 4 year break. I don't think that a year's break is enough my ground at the moment may be fine for om maintenance but not for reconstruction but we'll see. Intersting letter in the fw page 32 someone pointed out to me today.

dontknowanything · Sep 8, 2013

BSH said:
Tim, What will your rotation be in the arable cropping years? My inclination is not to have leys, but instead use green manures one year in four and mob stock them. That does however mean that you need enough rough grazing outside the arable area which may not be the case in every situation.

How do you mob stock a temporary green manure?

I believe that to get the best results, perennials are essential. Think of the root mass you can achieve with mob grazed leys, and the N fixing potential, compared to a cover crop that spends its prime growing season getting established...

Tim May · Sep 9, 2013

dontknowanything said:
How do you mob stock a temporary green manure?

I believe that to get the best results, perennials are essential. Think of the root mass you can achieve with mob grazed leys, and the N fixing potential, compared to a cover crop that spends its prime growing season getting established...

That's my reasoning too but I think bsh is in a different situation with land coming out of grass more recently so is starting from a different base. I understand that to sort out grass weeds it will take at least a 3 year ley. Also I worry about establishment of an annual cover. I'm running a s barley / pedders mix rotation on a couple of fields to see how that works. I'll have a better option in a few years time.

Will Blackburn · Sep 9, 2013

Weed control would be difficult in my situation with herbal leys far too many dock and thistle seeds in my ground. Currently we are moving to 3 - 6 year ryegrass/clover leys and 2 years wheat rotation. This after a good performance from 2nd wheat in a light land DD situation this year. This is better for cleaning the ground of grassland weeds than 1 year wheat.

dontknowanything · Sep 9, 2013

Tim May said:
That's my reasoning too but I think bsh is in a different situation with land coming out of grass more recently so is starting from a different base. I understand that to sort out grass weeds it will take at least a 3 year ley. Also I worry about establishment of an annual cover. I'm running a s barley / pedders mix rotation on a couple of fields to see how that works. I'll have a better option in a few years time.

How do you think you will control grass weeds in a grazing system that promotes seed head formation? This is a big worry of mine!

3 year herbal ley break crop

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