iPad machine control

Pheasant Surprise said:

Not necessarily. If tablet has a 3G/4G radio then that can be used for internet access. The wifi radio can be run simultaneously and when placed in "ad-hoc" rather than "infrastructure" mode to connect to a wifi enabled controller on the implement or presumably isobus/CANBUS gateway on the tractor.

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I guess you mean "the WIFI could be built to work simultaneously with cellular internet connectivity"? I'm not aware of tablets that do this today. Would Google have interest to modify their design for precision ag needs. Everything is possible but what is likely at the end. I'm afraid your tablet based approach has similar but more critical "flaws" or expectations elsewhere.

Please do not understand me wrong, I'm not opposing any options like tablet based third party controllers. I'm just very pessimistic about the future because the big do not want to give up their device market and they have the full power to keep third party products away, or at sufficient distance.

Most implements the 'brain' is on the implement, the screen in the cab is literally just a screen. It wouldn't cost any more to make it a wifi connection, or use a web app to control it, but there would be no stupidly expensive cable to get caught in link arms - some of these are £600 each, and any tablet / laptop could be used to control it. Some screens are a good few £000, so not only would we save a fortune on screens we didn't need, if it went wrong you could be going again nearly instantly (use your iphone maybe).
As for losing internet connectivity, I'm not sure that would be a major problem, but I'm sure it could be worked around easily - just put the 3g card in the implement then it'd be like connecting to a router at home.

Northern farmer said:

I guess you mean "the WIFI could be built to work simultaneously with cellular internet connectivity"? I'm not aware of tablets that do this today.

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Hi. I don't think this is a show stopper at all, but I'd point out it is totally possible to connect iPad/Android tablets or smartphones directly to things like cameras and printers using Wi-Fi Direct and simultaneously use the 3G/4G cellular connection on the tablet/phone. Apple calls this AirPrint and AirDrop but you can do the same things on Android and much besides. Much in the same way a tablet could be linked using WiFi Direct to a control box on an implement or otherwise an isobus/CANbus gateway and still have cellular connectivity. Another way would be to use Bluetooth. Bale Band-It have an iPad control solution that connects using Bluetooth. Failing that the tablet could be connected using a cradle and wires, like any isoVT or dedicated control terminal.

Northern farmer said:

Would Google have interest to modify their design for precision ag needs. Everything is possible but what is likely at the end.

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Happy to be corrected but I don't think this needs any tablet re-design or re-invention for precision ag. needs?? What do you think is missing or needed here? The basic tablet ingredients are pretty extensive Wi-Fi, cellular, bluetooth, GPS, gyro and accelerometers, high-res touch screen, USB/external ports, fast processor, lots of memory...and of course relatively cheap and readily available in about a million shops should you need a hardware replacement.

.....just need to add the key ingredient, precision ag. 'Apps'

Northern farmer said:

I'm afraid your tablet based approach has similar but more critical "flaws" or expectations elsewhere.

Please do not understand me wrong, I'm not opposing any options like tablet based third party controllers. I'm just very pessimistic about the future because the big do not want to give up their device market and they have the full power to keep third party products away, or at sufficient distance.

Click to expand...

The biggest "expectation", I suppose is the realisation of precision ag. Apps. Check out stuff like the Vaddy E-Control iPad app below. That looks pretty good and the Bale Band-It app is pretty neat. Its a good start. I hope we see more.

My second expectation, to echo your sentiments, is many prec. ag. manufacturers have a strong vested interest in keeping the status quo. For them it's not really a question of "tablet control" at all. The real challenge is them moving away from a proprietary platform to a more 'open' one. Highly challenging for their existing revenue model as the display/terminal/processing hardware would be provided by the end user, and often much better specs than what's on offer for a tenth of the price.

This ties in with a third expectation, that 'encourages' change - customer expectation. BlackBerry and Nokia essentially failed because they failed to embrace the change all around them. With several hundred million tablets in use, surely those tablet users will have got comfortable with what they've been using for years, and will demand similar (bang for the buck and all that).

Sometimes its the 'upstarts' that change the game - maybe we should look to the "little' guys or the less obvious players to force some change here, then maybe customers will start demanding it of the bigger players.

You seem very clued up for a "simple farmer"
I've learnt a lot from this thread!

Pheasant Surprise said:

Hi. I don't think this is a show stopper at all, but I'd point out it is totally possible to connect iPad/Android tablets or smartphones directly to things like cameras and printers using Wi-Fi Direct and simultaneously use the 3G/4G cellular connection on the tablet/phone. Apple calls this AirPrint and AirDrop but you can do the same things on Android and much besides. Much in the same way a tablet could be linked using WiFi Direct to a control box on an implement or otherwise an isobus/CANbus gateway and still have cellular connectivity. Another way would be to use Bluetooth. Bale Band-It have an iPad control solution that connects using Bluetooth. Failing that the tablet could be connected using a cradle and wires, like any isoVT or dedicated control terminal.



Happy to be corrected but I don't think this needs any tablet re-design or re-invention for precision ag. needs?? What do you think is missing or needed here? The basic tablet ingredients are pretty extensive Wi-Fi, cellular, bluetooth, GPS, gyro and accelerometers, high-res touch screen, USB/external ports, fast processor, lots of memory...and of course relatively cheap and readily available in about a million shops should you need a hardware replacement.

.....just need to add the key ingredient, precision ag. 'Apps'



The biggest "expectation", I suppose is the realisation of precision ag. Apps. Check out stuff like the Vaddy E-Control iPad app below. That looks pretty good and the Bale Band-It app is pretty neat. Its a good start. I hope we see more.

My second expectation, to echo your sentiments, is many prec. ag. manufacturers have a strong vested interest in keeping the status quo. For them it's not really a question of "tablet control" at all. The real challenge is them moving away from a proprietary platform to a more 'open' one. Highly challenging for their existing revenue model as the display/terminal/processing hardware would be provided by the end user, and often much better specs than what's on offer for a tenth of the price.

This ties in with a third expectation, that 'encourages' change - customer expectation. BlackBerry and Nokia essentially failed because they failed to embrace the change all around them. With several hundred million tablets in use, surely those tablet users will have got comfortable with what they've been using for years, and will demand similar (bang for the buck and all that).

Sometimes its the 'upstarts' that change the game - maybe we should look to the "little' guys or the less obvious players to force some change here, then maybe customers will start demanding it of the bigger players.

Click to expand...

I know I have said this before (probably multiple times), but I don't thinks apps are what we need. Apps are already a horribly fragmented ecosystem, Apple Android Windows Phone Blackberry etc etc for a start.

Just make the control page a simple HTML5 page. You can now do all sorts of stuff with plain old HTML, even make the phone vibrate http://www.sitepoint.com/use-html5-vibration-api/

Websockets are more than fast enough for bi directional communication with the implement.

By doing it this way, it works on any device with an internet browser, tablet, smartphone, laptop, computer, web browser built into Fendt terminal etc.

It wouldn't be very hard to come up with a javascript api standard that let us 'map' all the tractors joystick buttons to specific key presses so as you could use the 'Go' button on a fendt joystick to drop triple mowers down (ie. like isobus, but 1 million times simpler and more versatile).


But as you also say.. I am sure that there are plenty of engineers out there would would love to build this stuff (it's really not very difficult), but the bean counters will not want to stop telling a £30 quid piece of sh1t implement computer from 2001 for 2 grand.

Sleepy,
People making the apps, selling the aps or just the HTML need to make it financially viable!
Anyone can do it, but making a business out of it is very different !

Yes, missing my point again!
Why make an app that could be subject to wifi issues, Bluetooth problems when you can make a control box!
My Bluetooth in my disco works perfectly..... Not
My wifi connection to my home hub is amazing..... Except during my waitrose shop when it cuts out!

Robt said:

Sleepy,
People making the apps, selling the aps or just the HTML need to make it financially viable!
Anyone can do it, but making a business out of it is very different !

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We make apps, in fact I employ 2 full time software developers and we give all our software away for free to our customers...
And we make the margin on the hardware / product they have to buy for the software to be of any use to them.

This is exactly how the machinery manufacturers need to look at it... and once one does it they will all do it

pas-john said:

Hi I should have this device launched sometime in the new year as you say the technology is there we are just working on the software to do the different functions needed one of these being a ISObus VT

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@pas-john how are you getting on? Any previews soon?

Sleepy..... For whom?????

Robt said:

Yes, missing my point again!
Why make an app that could be subject to wifi issues, Bluetooth problems when you can make a control box!
My Bluetooth in my disco works perfectly..... Not
My wifi connection to my home hub is amazing..... Except during my waitrose shop when it cuts out!

Click to expand...

For someone who is in the business of selling farm precision technology, you seem remarkably backward about the whole issue?

Why the pessimism?

Not against it , just trying to provide an equal discussion.
My experience with my iPhone, which is poor as a phone!
And Bluetooth connectivity in my car, which Is hit and miss

I remember Dick Danby of RDS Technology saying years ago that the key to winning farmers over to electronics on field machines is to produce gear to military specifications and sell them at a pocket calculator price. I think he has a little way to go on pricing but surely an Otter-box on a tablet must be one way to get the job done. And it gets over the problem of a box full of electronics being left in a damp shed or field for 10 months of the year. Looks like ISOBus has been overtaken by more advanced systems.

Looks like me on the left Clive !

Another way for implement manufacturers could be that they give you a basic control box with the machine and them sell you an expensive app to unlock all the extra features.

But really the apps may as well be free and the cost built into the machine because once you start charging for an app, Apple take 30% for the privilege of using their servers.

Pheasant Surprise said:

@pas-john how are you getting on? Any previews soon?

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We are still working hard at it we connected the tablet over wifi using HTML5 but found in field testing that the data transfer was too slow, we went back to the drawing board and with some academic assistance opened a specific data tunnel cant tell you how we did this as its subject to IP but we have excellent data transfer now to the tablet, will be beta testing in late March so will keep you informed.

pas-john said:

We are still working hard at it we connected the tablet over wifi using HTML5 but found in field testing that the data transfer was too slow, we went back to the drawing board and with some academic assistance opened a specific data tunnel cant tell you how we did this as its subject to IP but we have excellent data transfer now to the tablet, will be beta testing in late March so will keep you informed.

Click to expand...

Are you still using HTML5 / web app?

Why not just use websockets?? They are fairly well supported by mobile browsers now.