Albrecht versus conventional soil testing - my experiments

marco · Oct 17, 2014

mikep said:
I may be thick but if you see no increase in yield then surely it has failed. In this case increased bushel weight would be irrelevant unless the treatment has aborted some grains.
However keep on doing it for many years and you will be poorer and some new crackpot theory will explain why.
Just ask yourself why are this years yields generally good? have lots of people been using the Albrecht system or just a bit more sunshine?

Ok if you have index 1 for p lets say and you go out and spread 125kg/ha of dap, you see no yeild increase what do you blame? the weather? . could it be that you need to spend a few years applying dap at 250kg/ha to see an increase in indicies and yeild?

York · Oct 17, 2014

marco said:
Ok if you have index 1 for p lets say and you go out and spread 125kg/ha of dap, you see no yeild increase what do you blame? the weather? . could it be that you need to spend a few years applying dap at 250kg/ha to see an increase in indicies and yeild?

Marco,
we have some clients which havethe lowest index, and don't apply P. You have to also look at other properties and make your conclusions. indexes are like sulphuric acid for lime sales people a marketing instrument for selling certain inputs. In no way are they a tool for showing you what are your real problems and how to solve them.
On the other hand there are farms which have P levels which are x times the recomended / adequate levels and their crops have P def. stress. How does this match?
RB209:
is there a link where I can find the numbers? Of if someone could post some numbers, or a copy, via e-mail or pm?
York-Th.

marco · Oct 17, 2014

York said:
Marco,
we have some clients which havethe lowest index, and don't apply P. You have to also look at other properties and make your conclusions. indexes are like sulphuric acid for lime sales people a marketing instrument for selling certain inputs. In no way are they a tool for showing you what are your real problems and how to solve them.
On the other hand there are farms which have P levels which are x times the recomended / adequate levels and their crops have P def. stress. How does this match?
RB209:
is there a link where I can find the numbers? Of if someone could post some numbers, or a copy, via e-mail or pm?
York-Th.

well if you don't tell us what the other numbers in a soil test are, i cant say or even start to guess. But i will anyway. Is the guy with low P using covers and legumes to make P more available? Is excessive P restricting the uptake of zinc? or conversely is excessive zinc stopping the plant taking up P?

mikep · Oct 17, 2014

marco said:
Ok if you have index 1 for p lets say and you go out and spread 125kg/ha of dap, you see no yeild increase what do you blame? the weather? . could it be that you need to spend a few years applying dap at 250kg/ha to see an increase in indicies and yeild?

If you see no increase in yield especially by yr 2 you are barking up the wrong tree and P is not your limiting factor. May be like me your soil is pretty sh!t and will never yield well every year so no point chasing your tail. Here 3t ac average (WW) would be ok 3.5 good and any more pot luck. I have fields that are high index and others low and there is bugger all difference in their yield potential because the soil is such that it depends on the weather for a good year and cannot make good without a lot of sunshine. If you look to a lab report for salvation in this case you will get the Nobel prize for waiting. I think the best thing for my soil is for the farmer to realise the limit of potential and produce what he/she can as cheaply as possible.
May shock some people but I work the reverse way and remove some inputs and see if the yield falls, if not leave them out.

mikep · Oct 17, 2014

York said:
Marco,
we have some clients which havethe lowest index, and don't apply P. You have to also look at other properties and make your conclusions. indexes are like sulphuric acid for lime sales people a marketing instrument for selling certain inputs. In no way are they a tool for showing you what are your real problems and how to solve them.
On the other hand there are farms which have P levels which are x times the recomended / adequate levels and their crops have P def. stress. How does this match?
RB209:
is there a link where I can find the numbers? Of if someone could post some numbers, or a copy, via e-mail or pm?
York-Th.

Where does the soil type come into this? You can put a zillion things onto a thin soil and if you get a dry year you get little out. If you have a chalk soil there is sod all you can do about lock up so why not stop chasing the impossible, accept what you have and get the best out of it as cheaply as possible?

York · Oct 18, 2014

mikep said:
If you see no increase in yield especially by yr 2 you are barking up the wrong tree and P is not your limiting factor. May be like me your soil is pretty sh!t and will never yield well every year so no point chasing your tail. Here 3t ac average (WW) would be ok 3.5 good and any more pot luck. I have fields that are high index and others low and there is bugger all difference in their yield potential because the soil is such that it depends on the weather for a good year and cannot make good without a lot of sunshine. If you look to a lab report for salvation in this case you will get the Nobel prize for waiting. I think the best thing for my soil is for the farmer to realise the limit of potential and produce what he/she can as cheaply as possible.
May shock some people but I work the reverse way and remove some inputs and see if the yield falls, if not leave them out.

now, with your conclusion on Weather you are right, in my expericne, when you have under your top soil solid rock.
Making the weather the source & origin of all fate is just the poor excuse of the farmer on his inability to be able to understand the origin of the causes for poor yields. And I'm also including there severe instances like 6 weeks of now rain, 100 mm in a day rainfall and high wind. As long as you can see in your fields patches, be it the size of a little bed room, which are not affected the weather is a scape goat but not the true source for fate.
I'm not going to elaborate about that any longer as I have done this on numerous times over the years, even on the previous used forum BFF.

I have clients which have a pH of 9 with 90% Ca saturation and things are changing to the good. And they are not bancrupt. One new organic client related to me last week this: "I have had a field where we had 2x carrots previously and we had massive problems with nematodes, so lots of carrots with this long side roots / hairs. This year I couldn't find a single one." Nematodes where a issue with other farmers in the region, so it was not a effect of the year. He furthermore said: "I'm just enjoying what I experience and not talking about it, as no one is believing it anyway. The people which are asking get a honest answer and I will let them know what I do." He also related this to me, bear in mind he is organic: I have had a field of Faba Beans, next to my neighbour, also organic. His beans where black from aphids, mine did have hardly any."
all info is out there for people who are open minded and willing to make the change on their property. You are not entering a fan club with your fellow farmers as you might loose friends because you can't join the common lamenting club at the pub. Even invitations to fellow birthdays or funerals might be less.
York-Th.

York · Oct 18, 2014

mikep said:
Where does the soil type come into this? You can put a zillion things onto a thin soil and if you get a dry year you get little out. If you have a chalk soil there is sod all you can do about lock up so why not stop chasing the impossible, accept what you have and get the best out of it as cheaply as possible?

Look, if you have the attitude of "It's impossible" you can have the solution for the challenge sitting right at your foot tip and you will overlook it. Haven't you had the incidence, when you are married, that you where searching s. th. like craisy and once you asked your spouse she found it promptly. And even more astonishing, you had looked at this place several times? I was than thinking: boy that's magic. Even accusing my spouse to have hidden and now placing it there.
Look, it's like a organic farmer which says: No Till is Glyphosate. As long as they have this attitude they will not see it. Now some are starting and looking for solutions. Look at Rodale Institute, where they do it.
sorry, MikeP, I have the impression that the Impossible" is still like a big wood plank in front of your eyes. It's a waste of time to debate about the impossible.
Have a blessed weekend. Enjoy the nice weather, the late summer, at least we shall get 25°C the next couple of days. Fill in the sunshine for the more darker & foggy times.
York-Th.

York · Oct 18, 2014

marco said:
well if you don't tell us what the other numbers in a soil test are, i cant say or even start to guess. But i will anyway. Is the guy with low P using covers and legumes to make P more available? Is excessive P restricting the uptake of zinc? or conversely is excessive zinc stopping the plant taking up P?

Marco,
as you are aware of the Albrecht system you got some of the aspects. There is more to it. Certainly cover crop will help availability, this is the "biological" approach, you can also use the "chemical" approach.
Only with a detailed report, ok, I'm just too dum that I only understand the Albrecht way of base saturation, you can predict what happens and do the forward conclusion to make a change.
York-Th.

marco · Oct 18, 2014

mikep said:
Where does the soil type come into this? You can put a zillion things onto a thin soil and if you get a dry year you get little out. If you have a chalk soil there is sod all you can do about lock up so why not stop chasing the impossible, accept what you have and get the best out of it as cheaply as possible?

Its called cec or cation exchange capacity. Ie a measure of the soils ability to hold nutrients. Low numbers for sandy soils ,higher for heavy. Its standard on an Albrecht test from glenside York Kinsey ect

marco · Oct 18, 2014

York said:
Marco,
as you are aware of the Albrecht system you got some of the aspects. there are more to it. Certainly cover crop will help availability, this is the "biological" approach, you can also use the "chemical" approach.
Only with a detailed report, ok, I'm just too dum that I only understand the Albrecht way of base saturation, you can predict what happens and do the forward conclusion to make a change.
York-Th.

Not sure what your saying here York, I've made a guess on your riddle and I somehow seemed to have insulted you. Or maybe not.

SilliamWhale · Oct 18, 2014

marco said:
Ok if you have index 1 for p lets say and you go out and spread 125kg/ha of dap, you see no yeild increase what do you blame? the weather? . could it be that you need to spend a few years applying dap at 250kg/ha to see an increase in indicies and yeild?

The soil test is just a way of trying to ascertain chemically what is available to the plant over the growing season. Its a prediction really, rather than showing the actual amounts of minerals in that soil. Loads of other things come into play too - tillage, moisture, ph, organic matter, biological activity. Also the availability of minerals to the plant depends on things like root mass to increase the availability of potential nutrients (because that is how in the main the plants feed).

But to answer your question I'd get the P to a level of about 2 and that is at a level whereby I would not expect any yield increases or decreases with reference to P.

York · Oct 18, 2014

marco said:
Not sure what your saying here York, I've made a guess on your riddle and I somehow seemed to have insulted you. Or maybe not.

Marco,
I'm not feeling insulted. Tried to be clear from my side. Now, if you already have a chalenge in understanding my poor ability of expressing myself in a foreign language, how on earth others are getting it. So I rewrite what I wrote above:
as you are aware of the Albrecht system you got some of the aspects. With this I mean the "interrelationships" of the nutrients in influencing their uptake by the plants.
However there is more to it.
Certainly cover crop will help availability, this is the "biological" approach, you can also use the "chemical" approach of making P more available. Because it's a big difference of your total P in the soil and the P available. We have soils, as higher the pH & Ca saturation goes, as more is "locked" up as Ca-phosphate. so it's not the question of a poor P index but poor availability.
Only with a detailed report, ok, I'm just too dum that I only understand the Albrecht way of base saturation, you can predict what happens and do the forward conclusion to make a change.(What I mean by this is that I can't work with numbers from any other report as I only understand the Albrecht way)
I hope this is now more understandable English.
Cheers
York-Th.
.

SilliamWhale · Oct 18, 2014

York said:
I have clients which have a pH of 9 with 90% Ca saturation and things are changing to the good. And they are not bancrupt.

If your mate has 90% Ca saturation then why haven't you got him to spend money to get down to the magical ratio of 70/30? My answer would be because its not economic and that sometimes you have to work with what you have. You will never change such soils fundamentally - they are millions of years in the making.

SilliamWhale · Oct 18, 2014

York said:
. Look at Rodale Institute, where they do it.

York-Th.

They don't really.

They roll cover crops and no till into them but they plough in and around the rotation for the cover crop etc. I've been there.

SilliamWhale · Oct 18, 2014

York said:
Marco,
I'm not feeling insulted. Tried to be clear from my side. Now, if you already have a chalenge in understanding my poor ability of expressing myself in a foreign language, how on earth others are getting it. So I rewrite what I wrote above:
as you are aware of the Albrecht system you got some of the aspects. With this I mean the "interrelationships" of the nutrients in influencing their uptake by the plants.
However there is more to it.
Certainly cover crop will help availability, this is the "biological" approach, you can also use the "chemical" approach of making P more available. Because it's a big difference of your total P in the soil and the P available. We have soils, as higher the pH & Ca saturation goes, as more is "locked" up as Ca-phosphate. so it's not the question of a poor P index but poor availability.
Only with a detailed report, ok, I'm just too dum that I only understand the Albrecht way of base saturation, you can predict what happens and do the forward conclusion to make a change.(What I mean by this is that I can't work with numbers from any other report as I only understand the Albrecht way)
I hope this is now more understandable English.
Cheers
York-Th.
.

We know that generally speaking most nutrients are most available at a pH of around 6-6.5 - availability changes with pH. Which is why generally farmers are advised to aim for this. Its not possible for everyone so naturally at higher pH's you are going to have to fight for getting some nutrients more available - for example you may get less P availabilty at higher pH. Whether its yield sapping is not always proven.

Soil tests are only a chemical prediction of potential availability. If you follow up with a tissue test you may find despite the chemical prediction of low P availability for example that the plant via its rooting habits and the soils biological activity may have an adequate supply of P for its needs. Getting a certain ratio right may very well be uneconomic.

marco · Oct 18, 2014

York said:
Marco,
as you are aware of the Albrecht system you got some of the aspects. There is more to it. Certainly cover crop will help availability, this is the "biological" approach, you can also use the "chemical" approach.
Only with a detailed report, ok, I'm just too dum that I only understand the Albrecht way of base saturation, you can predict what happens and do the forward conclusion to make a change.
York-Th.

Having just realized that your comment on base saturation was the clue about excess calcium locking up P. I was hoping you hadn't replied. But happy you didn't tell me straight away and made me think about it myself for a few hours.

York · Oct 18, 2014

marco said:
Having just realized that your comment on base saturation was the clue about excess calcium locking up P. I was hoping you hadn't replied. But happy you didn't tell me straight away and made me think about it myself for a few hours.

Marco,
thanks for your comment. Look this is now in your head, and that's about it. And you found the solution on your own.
Keep thinking, the answers are, in majority, right at your toe tips.
Now after this intensive thinking enjoy weekend and have your brain rested.
York-Th.

SilliamWhale · Oct 18, 2014

marco said:
Having just realized that your comment on base saturation was the clue about excess calcium locking up P. I was hoping you hadn't replied. But happy you didn't tell me straight away and made me think about it myself for a few hours.

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marco · Oct 18, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
View attachment 74242

My understanding (I could be wrong) is phosphorus is a triple negatively charged anion and will bond strongly with positive charged calcium cation.

SilliamWhale · Oct 18, 2014

@marco - whats the PH of your soils generally? Do you have a problem with low P availability because of high Ca?

Albrecht versus conventional soil testing - my experiments

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