Albrecht versus conventional soil testing - my experiments

[marco]

@marco - whats the PH of your soils generally? Do you have a problem with low P availability because of high Ca?

here's one sample,

CEC: 14.09

PH:6.8

calcium 83%

mag 5%

potassium 2.68%,

phosphates as p205 262kg/ha

boron .71ppm

iron 757 ppm

manganese 106ppm

copper 2.7 ppm

zinc 9.5 ppm

molybdenum 1.56 ppm

sodium 92kgs/ha

potassium 330kgs ha

sulfate s 21 kgs/ha

 

[mikep]

Its called cec or cation exchange capacity. Ie a measure of the soils ability to hold nutrients. Low numbers for sandy soils ,higher for heavy. Its standard on an Albrecht test from glenside York Kinsey ect

Look the CEC does not matter one flying f**k if there is no moisture present or it is cold and the plant not growing. Don't get mesmerised by all the crap about ratio's because if your soil is cold and wet or thin and dry it will make more difference than whatever you can do to it. Do you really believe that if I tinkered with my chemistry set I could consistantly average 4t/ac of WW? The soil structure says not so live with it and make the best of it. Think of the most sucessful farmers you can and are they pratting around with all this? unlikely.

 

[marco]

actually they are, one of the most successful self made farmers in this country is using the system. But then you wouldn't care anyways.

 

[SilliamWhale]

actually they are, one of the most successful self made farmers in this country is using the system. But then you wouldn't care anyways.

What's he doing and how has it changed him?

And also what are you doing now that's different? (thats not related to other land management things like no till etc.)

 

[marco]

What's he doing and how has it changed him?

And also what are you doing now that's different? (thats not related to other land management things like no till etc.)

well one major thing was in one particular field, always grew really good grass but always had a tendency to have a few dead lambs and more often than not a few dead ewes as well.

when we got the kinsey soil sample back it had a note at the bottom that said, attention: K is above Mg! very very critical. so we spread kieserit on the field an have had no deaths this year and we know not to spread any slurry or K based fert on this field.

Our fert spend hasn't gone up, we are just spending it in different ways.

As for the other farmer he was finding a few fields that were reading good on a normal soil test but he wasn't happy with the yeilds, ie they were lower than fields with simular results. so he started by getting these fields kinsey tested and has followed the recomendation but as far as i know it took two years before he saw an increase. But then this same farmer is notilling and strip tilling and as you said he probably has a greater interest in soils and soil fertility because he's interested in strip-till/no-till etc.

 

[York]

Look the CEC does not matter one flying f**k if there is no moisture present or it is cold and the plant not growing. Don't get mesmerised by all the crap about ratio's because if your soil is cold and wet or thin and dry it will make more difference than whatever you can do to it. Do you really believe that if I tinkered with my chemistry set I could consistantly average 4t/ac of WW? The soil structure says not so live with it and make the best of it. Think of the most sucessful farmers you can and are they pratting around with all this? unlikely.

Mikep,
we have farmers which are in their regions already the top. One particular sends in, on his 200 ha, every year 30 to 40 samples. When we started 5+ years ago his yield goal was: 10 t/ha wheat & 5 t/ha OSR.
Now his yield goal went to 12 t/ha wheat & 6 t/ha OSR with 30% less Chemicals used.
His comment: "It's dum not to do it."
Look, like Marco said: even in a drought in AU this certain farmer has green grass, right to the fence line. All other surrounding farms have no green grass. Even than, and that is now for 10+ years happening regularly, the neighbours insist on that to the fence line of this certain farmer he get's more rain.
In AU, in the No Till groups, there is saying: "Don't talk, buy them".
sunny greetings from a nice autumn day.
York-Th.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Mikep,
we have farmers which are in their regions already the top. One particular sends in, on his 200 ha, every year 30 to 40 samples. When we started 5+ years ago his yield goal was: 10 t/ha wheat & 5 t/ha OSR.
Now his yield goal went to 12 t/ha wheat & 6 t/ha OSR with 30% less Chemicals used.
His comment: "It's dum not to do it."
Look, like Marco said: even in a drought in AU this certain farmer has green grass, right to the fence line. All other surrounding farms have no green grass. Even than, and that is now for 10+ years happening regularly, the neighbours insist on that to the fence line of this certain farmer he get's more rain.
In AU, in the No Till groups, there is saying: "Don't talk, buy them".
sunny greetings from a nice autumn day.
York-Th.

But this is all hearsay. I'm not dismissing it but people need more than this. I've not seen any pictures, any data (it can be farmer data it doesn't have to be university or research data) or much beyond conclusions which may equally have another explantion as well.

This stuff originated from lab data but there doesn't seem to be much data backing it up? Only someone saying his grass is green on one side of the fence and we don't even get a photo or a list of what amendments were done. Its like buying a steam mop off the shopping channel.

 

[mikep]

actually they are, one of the most successful self made farmers in this country is using the system. But then you wouldn't care anyways.

Sorry, for every one you can say there are ten others who are lucky and on better soil so do well. I have had sheep long enough to know that the old addage that 'sunshine is the best bite for lambs' is very true, again the weather will have more effect than muck and mystery. Nothing can make my soils as fertile as those just ten miles down the road, they are not messing round with this stuff just got better dirt. @York you have just missed the point your man started off at 10t/ha and got better so he had some excellent soil to start. An awful lot of people who usually get 10t/ha got 12 this year and they were not messing around with Albrecht so its the weather on that one. If this had any real legs then there would be a lot more of you shouting about it with some real peer reviewed evidence to show not just 'a man down the road etc'. I am open to any ideas but this, for me, is just another blind alley and until proved otherwise I shall be totally unconvinced.

 

[York]

Sorry, for every one you can say there are ten others who are lucky and on better soil so do well. I have had sheep long enough to know that the old addage that 'sunshine is the best bite for lambs' is very true, again the weather will have more effect than muck and mystery. Nothing can make my soils as fertile as those just ten miles down the road, they are not messing round with this stuff just got better dirt. @York you have just missed the point your man started off at 10t/ha and got better so he had some excellent soil to start. An awful lot of people who usually get 10t/ha got 12 this year and they were not messing around with Albrecht so its the weather on that one. If this had any real legs then there would be a lot more of you shouting about it with some real peer reviewed evidence to show not just 'a man down the road etc'. I am open to any ideas but this, for me, is just another blind alley and until proved otherwise I shall be totally unconvinced.

MikeP,
you are absolutely right. Sunshine & Rain are very important.
What you miss is that this man was already a top notch farmer in his region and he has fields all over the place. OK, for your info , he was so clever that he is only renting the good land.
He is also not aiming the 12 r/ha for chances but aiming for every year so in a good year he might even go beyond this. Like a good friend north of London. In a year he started with the Albrecht system his normal average was 10 t/ha. In that year every one had 12 t/ha in his region, he had 15 t/ha where he applied the Albrecht system.
We have had this comparisons over here, done by government bodies, and the Albrecht system always outperformed the conventional. Unfortunately they did only 1/2 of the program, wonder what would have happened with the full program. Now that was a 5 year trial with replicated test plots, 4 different fertiliser systems compared. In each year the Albrecht system had the highest yield. After the 5th year the researcher retired
Stay where you are, in your comfort zone. I for sure will not want you out of your comfort zone.
Happily there are enough which are not feeling in a comfort zone or aiming for a improvement of their comfort zone. Just don't hinder them to leave their comfort zone. In hindering you just keep people which might ask questions in your comfort zone. ;-)
York-Th.

 

[Renaultman]

MikeP,
you are absolutely right. Sunshine & Rain are very important.
What you miss is that this man was already a top notch farmer in his region and he has fields all over the place. OK, for your info , he was so clever that he is only renting the good land.
He is also not aiming the 12 r/ha for chances but aiming for every year so in a good year he might even go beyond this. Like a good friend north of London. In a year he started with the Albrecht system his normal average was 10 t/ha. In that year every one had 12 t/ha in his region, he had 15 t/ha where he applied the Albrecht system.
We have had this comparisons over here, done by government bodies, and the Albrecht system always outperformed the conventional. Unfortunately they did only 1/2 of the program, wonder what would have happened with the full program. Now that was a 5 year trial with replicated test plots, 4 different fertiliser systems compared. In each year the Albrecht system had the highest yield. After the 5th year the researcher retired
Stay where you are, in your comfort zone. I for sure will not want you out of your comfort zone.
Happily there are enough which are not feeling in a comfort zone or aiming for a improvement of their comfort zone. Just don't hinder them to leave their comfort zone. In hindering you just keep people which might ask questions in your comfort zone. ;-)
York-Th.

I am sort of a fence sitter and watch with fascination the varying discussions and arguments from all sides. I can understand how a Ca Mg imbalance can affect yields and crop/animal health.
I also fully understand the principles of Controlled traffic management and min till through to no till.
We can't do anything without sun and water and have little or no control over these things so I am always keen to learn about ways to improve the things that I can control so please continue to try and educate me. That's you @tafka @York @Elmsted and many others. You do the work and I'll hang onto your coat tails

 

[York]

I am sort of a fence sitter and watch with fascination the varying discussions and arguments from all sides. I can understand how a Ca Mg imbalance can affect yields and crop/animal health.
I also fully understand the principles of Controlled traffic management and min till through to no till.
We can't do anything without sun and water and have little or no control over these things so I am always keen to learn about ways to improve the things that I can control so please continue to try and educate me. That's you @tafka @York @Elmsted and many others. You do the work and I'll hang onto your coat tails

Please, don't do that. It's a burden and the quality of our coat tails has gone down, so in the end someone will only be left with his underwear and you loose the "guidance". so better to walk each on on his own and interact, as it's meant on the forum.
York-Th.

 

[Renaultman]

Please, don't do that. It's a burden and the quality of our coat tails has gone down, so in the end someone will only be left with his underwear and you loose the "guidance". so better to walk each on on his own and interact, as it's meant on the forum.
York-Th.

That's ok for some. but I am, very much in the 'better to keep your mouth shut and look like an idiot than open it and prove it' camp. Sorry about the coat tails I always try to interact but often have to shut up and listen to the greater knowledge and education.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I am sort of a fence sitter and watch with fascination the varying discussions and arguments from all sides. I can understand how a Ca Mg imbalance can affect yields and crop/animal health.
I also fully understand the principles of Controlled traffic management and min till through to no till.
We can't do anything without sun and water and have little or no control over these things so I am always keen to learn about ways to improve the things that I can control so please continue to try and educate me. That's you @tafka @York @Elmsted and many others. You do the work and I'll hang onto your coat tails

The only thing is that who has decided what the Ca/Mg balance should be?

 

[Renaultman]

The only thing is that who has decided what the Ca/Mg balance should be?

Personally I think for farmers like me in a high Mg area it is always going to be a balance between optimal and economical, I can't imaging me ever getting it to and maintaining the ideal ratio, even if I knew what it was.