A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. . . . . .

[Jackov Altraids]

but only if you don't understand you have 'a little knowledge'.
Whereas an expert can be dangerous by being confident they know everything about their subject without having understanding of how they may be completely ignorant of matters which may have a considerable impact or be impacted.
Maybe I'm being self-indulgent in promoting myself as a 'Jack-of-all-trades', but I would think it would apply to farmers more than any other profession.
Every policy and plan these days seem so linear. We have problem X, consult an expert on X's and pursue plan Y.
Who these days looks at the bigger picture to come up with better ideas that can positively influence a variety of different issues which are connected by integrated problems.
It is widespread but you can see the affect in agriculture with;

1, Experts failing to understand the extent of the looming food crisis. They don't seem to understand the intricacies of food production or understand that the market share of the supermarkets is making it impossible for farmers to increase supply to meet demand.

2, ELMS. Hundreds of single ideas about planting trees, direct drilling, not trimming hedges etc, with no real comprehension of how it fits together and no plan of having the right ideas of the right scales in the right place.

3, Rewilding. Is it good for carbon capture? Is it good for biodiversity? Is it offshoring food production at even higher financial and environmental cost?
No. Maybe and Yes.

We desperately need some coordination and consideration in creating proper policies that create fundamental shifts to better things rather than piecemeal sticking plasters on individual issues.

 

[Still Farming]

Bull Sh-t baffles Brains too.

 

[The Seeker]

I’m safe , I know enough to know I know very little in the grand scheme.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I’m safe , I know enough to know I know very little in the grand scheme.

Which is a good and healthy way to be.
As farmers, especially in these unpredictable times,we have a great understanding of the repercussions of any decision we make.
Many of us will have long established systems which we will be looking to adjust but any change has considerable knock-on effects. I fear that a general shift towards 'knowledge specialisation' means that there is a general lack of ability in society to understand how to make good decisions.

A recent thread would be a good example.
Ask the general public if farmers should be made to adopt a policy that would considerably reduce their carbon footprint, increase SOM and help nature, they would be all for it.
Ask them if we should be able to leave dead livestock 'in situ', and they'd be up in arms.

 

[ollie989898]

but only if you don't understand you have 'a little knowledge'.
Whereas an expert can be dangerous by being confident they know everything about their subject without having understanding of how they may be completely ignorant of matters which may have a considerable impact or be impacted.
Maybe I'm being self-indulgent in promoting myself as a 'Jack-of-all-trades', but I would think it would apply to farmers more than any other profession.
Every policy and plan these days seem so linear. We have problem X, consult an expert on X's and pursue plan Y.
Who these days looks at the bigger picture to come up with better ideas that can positively influence a variety of different issues which are connected by integrated problems.
It is widespread but you can see the affect in agriculture with;

1, Experts failing to understand the extent of the looming food crisis. They don't seem to understand the intricacies of food production or understand that the market share of the supermarkets is making it impossible for farmers to increase supply to meet demand.

2, ELMS. Hundreds of single ideas about planting trees, direct drilling, not trimming hedges etc, with no real comprehension of how it fits together and no plan of having the right ideas of the right scales in the right place.

3, Rewilding. Is it good for carbon capture? Is it good for biodiversity? Is it offshoring food production at even higher financial and environmental cost?
No. Maybe and Yes.

We desperately need some coordination and consideration in creating proper policies that create fundamental shifts to better things rather than piecemeal sticking plasters on individual issues.

I think farmers would be good at formulating policy, because working in the industry in virtually any capacity requires a little bit of knowledge and understanding of a lot of things. You guys might not realise but in the average day of a farmer or farm worker you're probably drawing on some or all of the following: agronomy, animal husbandry, chemistry, biology, accountancy, plumbing, construction and this is by no means an exhaustive list.

The problem with a lot of real experts is that they cannot see outside the confines of their own box. I once had what I would describe as a 'virulent environmentalist' asking quite acidly why farmers 'flail their hedges to bits' and why verge mowing alongside roads or river banks and the like was even necessary. I explained that if one did not control the vegetation by cutting, within no time at all you would essentially get trees growing everywhere, encroaching on fields and roads and waterways with reckless abandon and these are a far more complex and time consuming thing to trim or remove. It had clearly never entered into his mind the consequences of opting not to perform this simple act of countryside management.

It is useful to have knowledge of a range of things and to seek to broaden this as best you can. One of the true strengths of TFF (though the memes/humour are also first rate) is the knowledge one can gain from merely reading the prose that is written.

 

[matthew]

but only if you don't understand you have 'a little knowledge'.
Whereas an expert can be dangerous by being confident they know everything about their subject without having understanding of how they may be completely ignorant of matters which may have a considerable impact or be impacted.
Maybe I'm being self-indulgent in promoting myself as a 'Jack-of-all-trades', but I would think it would apply to farmers more than any other profession.
Every policy and plan these days seem so linear. We have problem X, consult an expert on X's and pursue plan Y.
Who these days looks at the bigger picture to come up with better ideas that can positively influence a variety of different issues which are connected by integrated problems.
It is widespread but you can see the affect in agriculture with;

1, Experts failing to understand the extent of the looming food crisis. They don't seem to understand the intricacies of food production or understand that the market share of the supermarkets is making it impossible for farmers to increase supply to meet demand.

2, ELMS. Hundreds of single ideas about planting trees, direct drilling, not trimming hedges etc, with no real comprehension of how it fits together and no plan of having the right ideas of the right scales in the right place.

3, Rewilding. Is it good for carbon capture? Is it good for biodiversity? Is it offshoring food production at even higher financial and environmental cost?
No. Maybe and Yes.

We desperately need some coordination and consideration in creating proper policies that create fundamental shifts to better things rather than piecemeal sticking plasters on individual issues.

A good question, and carrying on the debate:

4. Do you understand that recent past, current and future policies of government have actively discouraged the production of food, in favour of 1, 2, and 3.

5. Pursuant to the above, are you comfortable to outsource our food production, as the UK has with its base load power supply?

and finally,

6. Is that a secure way to create a safe environment for UK citizens in which to live?

 

[Goweresque]

It had clearly never entered into his mind the consequences of opting not to perform this simple act of countryside management.

Chesterton's Fence. Many people fail to realise that the current state of affairs has often arisen for very practical and sensible reasons, which may not be apparent on a superficial inspection. Thus when confronted with something they cannot see the reason for they immediately declare said action/policy/item to be outmoded, unnecessary and redundant. And should be abolished/banned/demolished. Only to discover that there were very good reasons for its existence that they were unaware of, and their sweeping away of it has subsequently caused a crisis to occur.

 

[Old Boar]

The Dunning-Kruger effect clearly seen...

 

[melted welly]

Scotgov are experts at this. There’s a (another) consultation on land reform and one section is on “environmental” obligations of large landowners.

i paraphrase: “Should large landowners be forced to publish carbon trading, emission reduction, and nature restoration initiatives as part of their land management plans?” They are proposing that holdings >3000ac should publish management plans for “stakeholders” to scrutinise.

I’m not a large landowner, or even a small landowner, but if we live in this “fair and just society” that bitchface keeps telling us we do, then surely those proposals should be applied to ALL situations/industries (retail, fashion, charities, investment, construction, leisure activities) not just rural landownership (which since the Green Party grifters weaselled under the table is a constant target).


We could start with the FM’s penchant for foreign travel, msps could lead by example thru LEAN government, and once our country’s public service is running like a Swiss watch, then they can start poking their nose into private business. But whilst it takes 4hours to get admitted to hospital, the roads are f**ked, our education system slides down this greasy woke shitter they’ve created, we’ve the highest drug deaths in Europe, and our country’s economic performance makes Mugabe look like Warren Buffett, they can feck off.

 

[DaveGrohl]

As farmers I’d completely agree that we’re "cursed" with having to live with the consequences of our previous "knowledge". Finding out that our previous over-confidence wasn’t quite all that is very sobering. It actually gives us a unique perspective in this world we now find ourselves in. Sadly the rest of the world now operates on shorter and shorter timespans.

Humanity is fekked.

 

[DaveGrohl]

A good question, and carrying on the debate:

4. Do you understand that recent past, current and future policies of government have actively discouraged the production of food, in favour of 1, 2, and 3.

5. Pursuant to the above, are you comfortable to outsource our food production, as the UK has with its base load power supply?

and finally,

6. Is that a secure way to create a safe environment for UK citizens in which to live?

Well if we’re gonna make a list we could send it in to the DEFRA methane consultation, pointing out that they didn’t even realise their "consultation" might have long-term consequences.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Chesterton's Fence. Many people fail to realise that the current state of affairs has often arisen for very practical and sensible reasons, which may not be apparent on a superficial inspection. Thus when confronted with something they cannot see the reason for they immediately declare said action/policy/item to be outmoded, unnecessary and redundant. And should be abolished/banned/demolished. Only to discover that there were very good reasons for its existence that they were unaware of, and their sweeping away of it has subsequently caused a crisis to occur.

Learning the hard way is just soooo last century daahling….

 

[wanton dwarf]

1, Experts failing to understand the extent of the looming food crisis. They don't seem to understand the intricacies of food production or understand that the market share of the supermarkets is making it impossible for farmers to increase supply to meet demand.

2, ELMS. Hundreds of single ideas about planting trees, direct drilling, not trimming hedges etc, with no real comprehension of how it fits together and no plan of having the right ideas of the right scales in the right place.

3, Rewilding. Is it good for carbon capture? Is it good for biodiversity? Is it offshoring food production at even higher financial and environmental cost?
No. Maybe and Yes.

IMHO "They" (DEFRA, UN, CCC, WEF (Most Western governments)) have realised that food & energy production was far too efficient for their new world fake food & renewables to compete.

So they are doing everything they can to make the current system inefficient - using Carbon problems as an excuse.

They are doing pretty well so far.

Thinking about hiding under the bed covers for a decade.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I explained that if one did not control the vegetation by cutting, within no time at all you would essentially get trees growing everywhere

I used to play in a wood. It must have been there for hundreds of years. The soil beneath the trees was a good foot thick of black compost material. But there was no grass - literally nothing other than medium sized trees and dead leaf material and a few branches etc. Most times the soils was dry.

 

[Boysground]

I think farmers would be good at formulating policy, because working in the industry in virtually any capacity requires a little bit of knowledge and understanding of a lot of things. You guys might not realise but in the average day of a farmer or farm worker you're probably drawing on some or all of the following: agronomy, animal husbandry, chemistry, biology, accountancy, plumbing, construction and this is by no means an exhaustive list.

The problem with a lot of real experts is that they cannot see outside the confines of their own box. I once had what I would describe as a 'virulent environmentalist' asking quite acidly why farmers 'flail their hedges to bits' and why verge mowing alongside roads or river banks and the like was even necessary. I explained that if one did not control the vegetation by cutting, within no time at all you would essentially get trees growing everywhere, encroaching on fields and roads and waterways with reckless abandon and these are a far more complex and time consuming thing to trim or remove. It had clearly never entered into his mind the consequences of opting not to perform this simple act of countryside management.

It is useful to have knowledge of a range of things and to seek to broaden this as best you can. One of the true strengths of TFF (though the memes/humour are also first rate) is the knowledge one can gain from merely reading the prose that is written.

You are totally right Ollie. My daughter has a law degree and is well on the way to becoming a corporate lawyer, my son has and agriculture business degree. I often tell people that my son did the more difficult degree because he could have been chopping a cow up in the morning and doing accountancy in the afternoon.

On top of this farmers always want to learn, most posts on here are questions looking for knowledge, we all understand that you never stop learning. I am not sure you can say that for many of those who try to tell us what to do.

Bg

 

[Tubbylew]

Wonder where defra are on this chart.

 

[ollie989898]

I used to play in a wood. It must have been there for hundreds of years. The soil beneath the trees was a good foot thick of black compost material. But there was no grass - literally nothing other than medium sized trees and dead leaf material and a few branches etc. Most times the soils was dry.

Indeed, some people do not realise that not all parts of the landscape would benefit from widespread afforestation. It can drain areas very effectively and stops a lot of other species from taking up residence. Trees didn't get where they are today by being friendly to other species.

 

[DaveGrohl]

the "They" (DEFRA, UN, CCC, WEF (Most Western governments)) have realised that food & energy production was far too efficient for their new world fake food & renewables to compete.

So they are doing everything they can to make the current system inefficient - using Carbon problems as an excuse.

They are doing pretty well so far.

Thinking about hiding under the bed covers for a decade.

Lol at the idea things will better in a decade.