Establishing clover in grassland

[Davy_g]

Morning everyone. Could I have some suggestions for establishing clover (white and or red) in mature grassland. I'm looking for alternative methods what don't cost much.

I could graze it tight and drill it but timing, cost and weather really are big factors as I wouldn't have more than one small field ready to do at any one time.
I have a small rotational grazing based farm with cattle only.
I started off years ago putting a handful of white clover seeds into the slurry tanker before filling and distributed it that way. I'm not sure I seen any clover growth that way.
I now put a few small scoops into each bucket that goes into the creep feeder. That's a slow process too but i am seeing fields with pockets, patches of white clover, some fields actually have a good background cover now. Although the cattle preferentailly graze grass over clover.
This year i started adding red clover to the buckets too. Two reasons, one: I'm not fooling myself into thinking its working and I will see red clover growing too and two: red clover doesn't seem to be the enemy to bloat it was once thought to be.

Anyone any better suggestions. The farm is a lifetime thing, so establishing vast amounts of clover in 1 year isn't the aim.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I think you can broadcast it reasonably effectively - but we have great growing conditions for clover, it grows on rocks, if there's soil or organic matter present. It grows out of the farm bike if I leave it to get wet.

Red and white are quite different, red clover has a taproot, so frequent grazing prunes that root and you end up back where you began.

White on the other hand loves too-frequent grazing as it keeps the grass low, and lets the light right down to the bottom.

The white clover will grow along the ground if management 'keeps on top of' everything all the time.

Neither will set much viable seed if it's mainly grazed at flowering, that is it takes a while for seed to become viable after pollination.

How's your local bee population?
This can be a determining factor as to how these species "stay" as they don't pollinate each other with wind, like grasses do.

You can spin it on with fertiliser if you use that, or with something like a slug-pellet spreader, or you can get a machine like a front-pack with a hopper and spinner.
@Kevtherev has one that I like the look of.

 

[Sid]

25 years plus of organic farming, so know about my clover

Most important points are get the nutrients and pH correct first.
Use medium leaf coover for grazing and larger for cutting.
Electro slug pelletier onto damp open swards would be my suggestion, graze it tight as you can, spread the seed onto soils then leave cattle in for few days to keep competition grass down and tread the clover in.
Then take them out and see.

Straight after morning works well in cutting swards, with Cambridge rolls to get the soil to seed contact.

@Kevtherev and @greatingrass know a thing or 2 as well

 

[DrDunc]

25 years plus of organic farming, so know about my clover

Most important points are get the nutrients and pH correct first.
Use medium leaf coover for grazing and larger for cutting.
Electro slug pelletier onto damp open swards would be my suggestion, graze it tight as you can, spread the seed onto soils then leave cattle in for few days to keep competition grass down and tread the clover in.
Then take them out and see.

Straight after morning works well in cutting swards, with Cambridge rolls to get the soil to seed contact.

@Kevtherev and @greatingrass know a thing or 2 as well

Land round here that's been organically farmed for twenty five years is predominantly devoid of any phosphate and potash, while riddled with weeds

In addition to pH, soil nutrient levels need to be right before clover will thrive. Springtime growth is slow until the soil warms above 10°C. Weeds get growing when it's cooler

If I'm needing to stitch in clover, first thing is to spray off weeds; you can't after the clover is sown. Then correct soil nutrient and acidity levels, then finally it's time to add clover seed. I've found adding seed into the dung spreader is cheap and very effective, but only after soil health and invasive plant competition had been corrected

(I'm not organic, I'm a hill mixed livestock with little arable farmer who's trying to work mostly in harmony with nature, though not always with the general public)

 

[M-J-G]

I graze tight, then sow with einbock or broadcast, keep stock on to keep grass short until I see clover plants coming, then remove stock once they are at risk of grazing the seedlings (cattle can stay longer than sheep at this stage)
This way competition from the established grass is kept to a minimum.

It usually allows a very good population, one of our neighbours says we have too much, but for an ex arable farm I don't think you can have too much of a good thing.

 

[Sid]

Land round here that's been organically farmed for twenty five years is predominantly devoid of any phosphate and potash, while riddled with weeds

That situation is not related to the farming technique but to the individual farmer.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I graze tight, then sow with einbock or broadcast, keep stock on to keep grass short until I see clover plants coming, then remove stock once they are at risk of grazing the seedlings (cattle can stay longer than sheep at this stage)
This way competition from the established grass is kept to a minimum.

It usually allows a very good population, one of our neighbours says we have too much, but for an ex arable farm I don't think you can have too much of a good thing.

As this I go over twice with a harrow then roll, after silage in early August works best, sow 3 kgs acre ,1 white 2 Red , I add a bit off Chicory to mine as well, Chicory and Red Clover seem to do well Together here
Seed won't grow on turf , you have to find some soil for it to grow and not to deep, the critical part is knowing when to turn the stock back on ,but if the grass is shading the clover out you have no choice but to graze or cut it

this was Tyne Harrowed in approximately 6 weeks ago ,I thought I lost it so cut it last week , was to early but it seems to be coming through

If your spraying off weeds look at the residual spray activity
some of those Dock Spays for instance you can't sow clover for a year after

 

[Sid]

Could I have some suggestions for establishing clover (white and or red) in mature grassland

What are you hoping to achieve with the clover
Nitrogen fixing?
Increased DM intakes?
Application to an SFI scheme?

As this I go over twice with a harrow then roll, after silage in early August works best, sow 3 kgs acre ,1 white 2 Red , I add a bit off Chicory to mine as well, Chicory and Red Clover seem to do well Together here
Seed won't grow on turf , you have to find some soil for it to grow and not to deep, the critical part is knowing when to turn the stock back on ,but if the grass is shading the clover out you have no choice but to graze or cut it

this was Tyne Harrowed in approximately 6 weeks ago ,I thought I lost it so cut it last week , was to early but it seems to be coming through

If your spraying off weeds look at the residual spray activity
some of those Dock Spays for instance you can't sow clover for a year after
View attachment 1128480

Is that mature grassland or a ley?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

What are you hoping to achieve with the clover
Nitrogen fixing?
Increased DM intakes?
Application to an SFI scheme?

Is that mature grassland or a ley?

Ley, but the same principles would apply imo
If its not open in the bottom, or opened up in the bottom it won't work , drilling into closed sward with a disc drill won't work

 

[cia72]

Graze tight, spin on with the slug Pelletier, heavy roll and then hope for some moisture.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I'm hoping for some dry weather
As for seed , prices in straights can vary enormously so phone around or look online
Learn about varieties If you don't already know
Most of the info is on the Recomended lists ,very important when choosing white clover

 

[Kevtherev]

25 years plus of organic farming, so know about my clover

Most important points are get the nutrients and pH correct first.
Use medium leaf coover for grazing and larger for cutting.
Electro slug pelletier onto damp open swards would be my suggestion, graze it tight as you can, spread the seed onto soils then leave cattle in for few days to keep competition grass down and tread the clover in.
Then take them out and see.

Straight after morning works well in cutting swards, with Cambridge rolls to get the soil to seed contact.

@Kevtherev and @greatingrass know a thing or 2 as well

P&K also very important for clover establishment too.
Best success is in a more open ley preference being after a cut of silage cratch clover in and either roll or walk stock over it for a day or two.
The small leaved clovers aren’t as good to overseed as medium or large leaved varieties.
Sometimes you may think it’s not been a success overseeding clover until you see the difference the following year so be patient.

 

[Kevtherev]

Morning everyone. Could I have some suggestions for establishing clover (white and or red) in mature grassland. I'm looking for alternative methods what don't cost much.

I could graze it tight and drill it but timing, cost and weather really are big factors as I wouldn't have more than one small field ready to do at any one time.
I have a small rotational grazing based farm with cattle only.
I started off years ago putting a handful of white clover seeds into the slurry tanker before filling and distributed it that way. I'm not sure I seen any clover growth that way.
I now put a few small scoops into each bucket that goes into the creep feeder. That's a slow process too but i am seeing fields with pockets, patches of white clover, some fields actually have a good background cover now. Although the cattle preferentailly graze grass over clover.
This year i started adding red clover to the buckets too. Two reasons, one: I'm not fooling myself into thinking its working and I will see red clover growing too and two: red clover doesn't seem to be the enemy to bloat it was once thought to be.

Anyone any better suggestions. The farm is a lifetime thing, so establishing vast amounts of clover in 1 year isn't the aim.

Could you send us some pics of the fields of choice so we can get a better idea of them?

 

[neilo]

I just broadcast seed on with a quad and slug pelleter whenever there’s bare soil (after mowing is ideal) and rain is forecast.

There aren’t many machines that you can use that will cost less than an extra kilo of clover seed, which would probably do more good than mechanising clover’s natural seeding process imo.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I just broadcast seed on with a quad and slug pelleter whenever there’s bare soil (after mowing is ideal) and rain is forecast.

There aren’t many machines that you can use that will cost less than an extra kilo of clover seed, which would probably do more good than mechanising clover’s natural seeding process imo.

Nature did not have to contend with rapidly growing Ryegrass , so clover seed needs some help, by delaying growth and improving seed bed conditions to encourage rapid Germination and growth
But I agree you could abandon all sorts of seed sowing and leave everything to nature
But overseeding anything into grass is a pointless waste of money unless conditions are right

 

[Sid]

Nature did not have to contend with rapidly growing Ryegrass , so clover seed needs some help, by delaying growth and improving seed bed conditions to encourage rapid Germination and growth
But I agree you could abandon all sorts of seed sowing and leave everything to nature

Data I've seen shows over seeding grasses is a waste of time.

 

[Sid]

Yes we you have aready said
A lot of farmers who do it think different

Farmers can test and trial if they like, its the salesman I despise telling them how great it is.

My seeds advisor, I won't call him a salesman because he never tries to sell me anything, isn't a fan of over seeding.

Here the data

Both are DM yeilds.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Farmers can test and trial if they like, its the salesman I despise telling them how great it is.

My seeds advisor, I won't call him a salesman because he never tries to sell me anything, isn't a fan of over seeding.

Here the data

Both are DM yeilds.
View attachment 1128547
View attachment 1128546

I don't advise anyone to overseed,bif someone asks what I do I tell them , like I do on here oveseeding has a place on my farm
Has you adviser ever farmered

Apart from that Clive says your nothing but a troll , I don't know why I ever bother replying to you

 

[Sid]

Has you adviser ever farmered

I've no idea, it immaterial to our discussions, he advises me on varieties, types of plants and when they should ideally be sown and harvested , not on how to farm.

Anyway what is farmered? Is that what you are a farmered, as in past tense?

No comments on the trials? How do they compare with your data v control for the same years?

 

[Davy_g]

What are you hoping to achieve with the clover
Nitrogen fixing?
Increased DM intakes?
Application to an SFI scheme?

Is that mature grassland or a ley?

Nitrogen fixing.

Mature grassland.