It's not a cost of living crisis, it's the solution to the climate crisis

[wanton dwarf]

Machines runs on electricity though. I've yet to see a person manage that feat...
On top of that machines means a more efficient process due to a more predictable process allowing you to streamline everything, as well as less waste.

People run on food and are very efficient compared to machines, self maintaining and self reproducing. Cost very little to run.

If you set a production line up to produce a certain make and model of cars. You get those cars produced - mistakes and all. What happens to the machinery when the model is changed ? A lot of the machinery will require at the very least retooling if not is redundant. Efficiency is relative.

But obviously people need money to live to buy the goods the machinery is making - hence efficiency is ultimately self defeating - unless you start giving stuff away for free.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Running cost lol, when running solar the base cost of fossil fuels has zero to do with its output cost to the user.
sure everything is touched by transport costs that includes fossil fuels themselves. Making that argument is a petty and you know it.

Stop dodging reality.

Fossil fuels underpin even the production of solar panels themselves and all the materials that go into making them.

There is a huge way to go before Renewables even make a dent in fossil fuel usage - doubling down on renewables will solve none of those issues either. Even the use of Renewables has led to new balancing power generation required for simply renewables to exist - which waste AT LEAST 10% of the energy when storing/releasing that energy - ie Battery storage.

 

[wanton dwarf]

basically, to achieve the fairytale "net zero" then we need to be redirecting almost all of the "fossil" energy (don't get me started on the term) towards creating and constructing and mining and building alternative energy plants - not traipsing about the county delivering tups or going up north to see Aunty Colleen

Tried to watch the video but TBH it seemed to be cherry picking and I don't agree with the premise of a lot of what was being said.

However, this point you've made is true and is what farmers DO need to be doing. However, practically speaking the technology is not available nor is the planning system willing to allow farmers to cater for their needs.

I DO think it is possible to create farm technology - not of the kind we see in Wind Turbines but something of a less efficient kind - which can be created and maintained by farmers. However, I doubt the general public or government or big business would accept farmers doing such. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see the "Environmentalists" being the most violent proponents - because I don't think they are environmentalists and they want the big pay day, even if it means Billions starve.

 

[Far North Gollach]

No.

If the UK didn't follow Green dogma then we would have UK fracking & UK fossil fuels & UK jobs to ride out the Ukraine war with ease.

Same with the lack of investment in UK industry - the munitions given to Ukraine cannot be replaced because the UK is dependant on imports.

Most commercial vehicles are fossil fuels based and even if magically they were instantly replaced - there is not the electric capacity to forefill the demand.

All the wheels have fell off the environmental bandwagon - it's a busted flush of hyperbole.

Plenty fracking offshore in the North Sea, just the onshore stuff that's banned in the UK/England. Look up Frac boats / stimulation vessels, they are absolute beasts and it's an impressive operations when you see them along side platforms.

 

[Dave645]

Stop dodging reality.

Fossil fuels underpin even the production of solar panels themselves and all the materials that go into making them.

There is a huge way to go before Renewables even make a dent in fossil fuel usage - doubling down on renewables will solve none of those issues either. Even the use of Renewables has led to new balancing power generation required for simply renewables to exist - which waste AT LEAST 10% of the energy when storing/releasing that energy - ie Battery storage.

I am not, I understand the realities of our production and energy systems transport, I also understand just doing what we did 20 years ago, will never end the cycle we were on, just repeating what we did in the past is a narrow short term view, at some point energy from oil and gas will get limited not just by war or sanctions, then we end up its normal for fuel at £2 a litre and nitrogen to be £750/t, and we have nothing in place to reduce our dependence on oil a gas so we just have to keep paying more, so more renewables is the only route to breaking those loops where war or shortages in oil and gas cause spikes in prices. for fuel and energy.

if we did what you wanted, just keep relying on them make no move to get away from them, we would now be paying even more for gas and nitrogen, and even more for fuel. the trend is upwards for both and that's a long term trend not short, mean while renewable energy is consistently the cheapest energy available.

one question, after we have made and installed solar panels, would you except that from then on, the energy they produce has nothing to do with fossil fuel prices, they are no longer linked to energy prices that are normally controlled by fossil fuels ?
energy from installed solar is free from link based costs in the fossil fuel based economy? anyone using them then is also not linked to the energy giants of the world that start wars to control oil and gas. of which we have now had 3.


energy waste from renewables, sure yes with or without grid storage in place there is waste, but your forgetting the old way to balance the grid was having paid power plants sat ready to power up or down and we paid them to do it, so waste and cost was built in.
the costs of letting solar or wind production fall off the grid is far less than paying for a power plant to sit idle. renewables need grid storage but not just because they are inconsistent, grids are tricky things and they have found battery storage can enhance grid stability because of its speed and ability to vary output by the fraction of a second, grids are coming plans have been made, no one in the industry believe the answers to return to more reliance on oil and gas.
the new way is grid storage and taking on and off wind energy production as needed. while cycling up or down traditional power plants (which takes time and costs far more money).

your a couple of decades behind the curve. while you may not like it or see the need, the energy industry does. so does the UK and EU, the new war trying to maintain a strangle on oil and gas imports is all the warning we all should need to where the road ends with our reliance on oil and gas.

Mr/Mrs home solar owner in there EV car and battery bank are hardly feeling the change, we all could be like them (no me I am feeling it!)

its a club everyone's invited to, and the cost of joining them is generally falling over time the car industry has seen the writing on the wall, so has the energy grid and jo public, the entry level to solar is only about £3k for a 3kwh system that was £18k 10 years ago I know I priced one.
sure this is hopefully a blip caused by a war, but at some point if we return to our old ways or fail to make steps away from oil and gas it will not be, it will be the new normal.
I know which road I want to take.
nice chatting later

 

[wanton dwarf]

I am not, I understand the realities of our production and energy systems transport, I also understand just doing what we did 20 years ago, will never end the cycle we were on, just repeating what we did in the past is a narrow short term view, at some point energy from oil and gas will get limited not just by war or sanctions, then we end up its normal for fuel at £2 a litre and nitrogen to be £750/t, and we have nothing in place to reduce our dependence on oil a gas so we just have to keep paying more, so more renewables is the only route to breaking those loops where war or shortages in oil and gas cause spikes in prices. for fuel and energy.

As far as I understand this is not how Renewables are charged to consumers. Electric is costed based on the most expensive supply - be that Nuclear, Gas, Solar or Wind. You could double Renewables but it doesn't change pricing. I also think the intent IS to make energy expensive and keep making it expensive - I don't think this has anything to do with claims of CO2 or indeed any other gas or Climate Change framework. It's purely to supress the UK consumer and move money - as much as possible - into political/government/authority/charity hands.

I don't see dependancy on Oil as bad thing if that is the lowest cost energy. Breaking markets is not a good idea IMHO. Alternatives are fine but taxes and regulation for sake of it is stupid.

if we did what you wanted, just keep relying on them make no move to get away from them, we would now be paying even more for gas and nitrogen, and even more for fuel. the trend is upwards for both and that's a long term trend not short, mean while renewable energy is consistently the cheapest energy available.

That is not what has happened. Green Policy banned expansion of UK fossil fuels to replace UK fossil fuels fields. Same with fracking. Instead MORE fossil fuels were imported from Russia - which meant UK peoples lost jobs & energy security AND Russia got rich. Russians even flaunted that money in "Green Westminster". I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same money to push the UK Green Agenda - which is literally making Russia money.

Renewables has never been the cheapest energy. Coal used to be 3.5p KwH - today energy is over 10p KwH. Emergency energy is over £1000 a KwH.

How you can talk about "Trends" when the destablisation of the UK energy market is totally down to Green legislation, regulation and taxes is beyond me. Green politics and only Green politics has enabled Russia to do what it has done. The band wagon of Green Policy has fallen to bits in what amounts to be ignorance and greed.

one question, after we have made and installed solar panels, would you except that from then on, the energy they produce has nothing to do with fossil fuel prices, they are no longer linked to energy prices that are normally controlled by fossil fuels ?

Not really. The grid, the maintenance staff and the replacement of the solar panels and any equipment will most be done by fossil fuels. The same for backup power standing ready to supply energy when the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow. There is a significant cost in just standby energy for renewables - which is ignored in costing on purpose by politicians and "Environmentalists".

energy waste from renewables, sure yes with or without grid storage in place there is waste, but your forgetting the old way to balance the grid was having paid power plants sat ready to power up or down and we paid them to do it, so waste and cost was built in.

A few points about that, energy was 3.5p per KwH under coal. Yes some plants were on tick over but demand could be ramped up quickly. Whereas that is not possible at all with Renewables - the capital cost of Renewables is not just the Renewables themselves but also backup supply and balancing. Both of which have to cater for complete outages not just increase in demand.

your a couple of decades behind the curve. while you may not like it or see the need, the energy industry does. so does the UK and EU, the new war trying to maintain a strangle on oil and gas imports is all the warning we all should need to where the road ends with our reliance on oil and gas.

What a joke.

Green Policy made the UK & EU vulnerable to Russia. Green policy stopped UK and EU investment. You are living in denial. Green policy needs to end completely and all supply done just on cost & security of supply alone - none of this backward childish political nonesense - most of which is about lining the pockets of already very rich very greedy people.

 

[brigadoon]

But I haven't heard a single politician or member of the 'intelligentsia' mention this simple fact.
Or anyone from the environmental lobby.

When did you ever hear a politician or a member of the intelligentsia say "suck it up snowflake?"

 

[wanton dwarf]

Mr/Mrs home solar owner in there EV car and battery bank are hardly feeling the change, we all could be like them (no me I am feeling it!)

That's just a lie.

Solar doesn't work in Winter and to get a supply today the cost has increased.

There isn't the materials for batteries nor electric supply to do it and you know it.

Worse still heating is not yet on the electric grid - there's something like a 2.5 times current electric supply required just to forefill current energy expenditure on heating using gas.

 

[honeyend]

That's just a lie.

Solar doesn't work in Winter and to get a supply today the cost has increased.

There isn't the materials for batteries nor electric supply to do it and you know it.

Worse still heating is not yet on the electric grid - there's something like a 2.5 times current electric supply required just to forefill current energy expenditure on heating using gas.

We get a lot of light in winter, so ours does, a cold bright day, powers our under floor heating on a air source pump, heats the slab and then it just needs a top up at night.
I think in any technology, getting something to work on another power source has limitations you have work around, its never like for like. There is always going to be a transitional period, I can remember the brick mobile phone, and having to have the mobile wired in to the car with a massive aerial, in the 80's. Its not ten years ago when people had their houses wired up for gadgets now its just a box that sits in the living room, that can do your lights, heating and even the washing machine. Even if solar is not the complete solution, its part of the tools to get there.
Our neighbour has no mains electric, they have had problems because so few people fully understand it, the 'expert' got the wiring wrong. I like the idea of micro grids where a local area produces and store its own power, there is wastage in transmission and infrastructure. If you were getting subscription power perhaps there would be more of an incentive not to waste it.
We do not store our excess yet, we are waiting for a better batteries, we run old bangers so it's not worth buying a new car.

 

[wanton dwarf]

We get a lot of light in winter, so ours does, a cold bright day, powers our under floor heating on a air source pump, heats the slab and then it just needs a top up at night.
I think in any technology, getting something to work on another power source has limitations you have work around, its never like for like. There is always going to be a transitional period, I can remember the brick mobile phone, and having to have the mobile wired in to the car with a massive aerial, in the 80's. Its not ten years ago when people had their houses wired up for gadgets now its just a box that sits in the living room, that can do your lights, heating and even the washing machine. Even if solar is not the complete solution, its part of the tools to get there.
Our neighbour has no mains electric, they have had problems because so few people fully understand it, the 'expert' got the wiring wrong. I like the idea of micro grids where a local area produces and store its own power, there is wastage in transmission and infrastructure. If you were getting subscription power perhaps there would be more of an incentive not to waste it.
We do not store our excess yet, we are waiting for a better batteries, we run old bangers so it's not worth buying a new car.

That's fine. I use 10,000 KwH and it's increasing - because I have electric cars charging in my yard. It's not going to work in Winter is it ? And that is before the Gas heating is replaced to electric.

 

[Dave645]

That's just a lie.

Solar doesn't work in Winter and to get a supply today the cost has increased.

There isn't the materials for batteries nor electric supply to do it and you know it.

Worse still heating is not yet on the electric grid - there's something like a 2.5 times current electric supply required just to forefill current energy expenditure on heating using gas.

I can see you want to nit pick details, have at it, just about everything you said above is wrong.
the only thing I will agree on is the grid and home heating but that's further down the road map its not is this decades target list. so as todays problems go fuel and energy its not likely we can do anything about it.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/th...ommendation&utm_campaign=Recommended_Articles

I found this for you, so you don't have to just believe me. most sensible people see energy as an issue especially if its only from oil and gas.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I can see you want to nit pick details, have at it, just about everything you said above is wrong.
the only thing I will agree on is the grid and home heating but that's further down the road map its not is this decades target list. so as todays problems go fuel and energy its not likely we can do anything about it.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/th...ommendation&utm_campaign=Recommended_Articles

I found this for you, so you don't have to just believe me. most sensible people see energy as an issue especially if its only from oil and gas.

The truth is Green Policy and Environmentalism has been caught out. Greens & Environmentalists would rather punish the UK peoples with less jobs, less security, higher taxes and fund dictators war machines.

When facts hit the fan the rhetoric and dogma has been dropped as not essential.

Shame 10,000s of people have had to die for it - lets hope more don't die freezing in power cuts eh ?

 

[TheCatsMeow]

I wonder if you're old enough to remember David Bellamy who was banned from the BBC for giving opposing views on climate change. You won't hear any dissenters now; they're too afraid of steering away from the BBC narrative to care about the truth.

 

[Dave645]

As far as I understand this is not how Renewables are charged to consumers. Electric is costed based on the most expensive supply - be that Nuclear, Gas, Solar or Wind. You could double Renewables but it doesn't change pricing. I also think the intent IS to make energy expensive and keep making it expensive - I don't think this has anything to do with claims of CO2 or indeed any other gas or Climate Change framework. It's purely to supress the UK consumer and move money - as much as possible - into political/government/authority/charity hands.

I don't see dependancy on Oil as bad thing if that is the lowest cost energy. Breaking markets is not a good idea IMHO. Alternatives are fine but taxes and regulation for sake of it is stupid.




That is not what has happened. Green Policy banned expansion of UK fossil fuels to replace UK fossil fuels fields. Same with fracking. Instead MORE fossil fuels were imported from Russia - which meant UK peoples lost jobs & energy security AND Russia got rich. Russians even flaunted that money in "Green Westminster". I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same money to push the UK Green Agenda - which is literally making Russia money.

Renewables has never been the cheapest energy. Coal used to be 3.5p KwH - today energy is over 10p KwH. Emergency energy is over £1000 a KwH.

How you can talk about "Trends" when the destablisation of the UK energy market is totally down to Green legislation, regulation and taxes is beyond me. Green politics and only Green politics has enabled Russia to do what it has done. The band wagon of Green Policy has fallen to bits in what amounts to be ignorance and greed.



Not really. The grid, the maintenance staff and the replacement of the solar panels and any equipment will most be done by fossil fuels. The same for backup power standing ready to supply energy when the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow. There is a significant cost in just standby energy for renewables - which is ignored in costing on purpose by politicians and "Environmentalists".



A few points about that, energy was 3.5p per KwH under coal. Yes some plants were on tick over but demand could be ramped up quickly. Whereas that is not possible at all with Renewables - the capital cost of Renewables is not just the Renewables themselves but also backup supply and balancing. Both of which have to cater for complete outages not just increase in demand.



What a joke.

Green Policy made the UK & EU vulnerable to Russia. Green policy stopped UK and EU investment. You are living in denial. Green policy needs to end completely and all supply done just on cost & security of supply alone - none of this backward childish political nonesense - most of which is about lining the pockets of already very rich very greedy people.

I can see your mentally straining yourself, coal at 3.5p/kwh ok when was that? what year? did you bring that up to today for inflation? did you factor the cost of coal now ? did you factor the cost of a new coal fired power station? and its construction and ongoing maintenance in todays money? err no you didn't, its universally excepted solar and wind as the worlds cheapest forms of energy production, so don't worry yourself. coal power that's used now is the most expensive form of energy on the grid because of all the factors you chose to ignore.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...7/electricity-generation-cost-report-2020.pdf
but don't take my word find it in the governments own figures.

and green policy as you call it, has not stopped private companies investing in oil and gas they have not, far from it, its very lucrative for them. . .

if you get what you ask for all supply based on "all supply done just on cost & security of supply alone" then read the report that's solar and wind sorry.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I can see your mentally straining yourself, coal at 3.5p/kwh ok when was that? what year? did you bring that up to today for inflation? did you factor the cost of coal now ? did you factor the cost of a new coal fired power station? and its construction and ongoing maintenance in todays money? err no you didn't, its universally excepted solar and wind as the worlds cheapest forms of energy production, so don't worry yourself. coal power that's used now is the most expensive form of energy on the grid because of all the factors you chose to ignore.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...7/electricity-generation-cost-report-2020.pdf
but don't take my word find it in the governments own figures.

and green policy as you call it, has not stopped private companies investing in oil and gas they have not, far from it, its very lucrative for them. . .

if you get what you ask for all supply based on "all supply done just on cost & security of supply alone" then read the report that's solar and wind sorry.

So you think introducing more expensive methods of generating electricity - which directly increases inflation - should be used as a basis for costing out Coal today ?

3.5p KwH was when the UK had the lowest cost energy supply in Europe - before Green Policy made UK generation one of the most expensive - in fact in 2017 only Italy was more expensive.

 

[Dave645]

The truth is Green Policy and Environmentalism has been caught out. Greens & Environmentalists would rather punish the UK peoples with less jobs, less security, higher taxes and fund dictators war machines.

When facts hit the fan the rhetoric and dogma has been dropped as not essential.

Shame 10,000s of people have had to die for it - lets hope more don't die freezing in power cuts eh ?

less jobs, ooo you mean coal mines, I live in a coal mining area, a lot of them told their children they couldn't go down the mines because they understood first hand how much a danger to health it was. and thy couldn't compete on price with large open cast mines around the world.

renewables have started whole new industries and work for a new generation, maintaining and building all the changes we need, you seem to have narrowed your outlook on the world lift your head up and embrace the change its coming regardless of if you like it or not.
if we get power cuts it will just be a reminder of our unhealthy reliance on fossil fuels. remember oil companies are independent and highly profitable.

 

[wanton dwarf]

less jobs, ooo you mean coal mines, I live in a coal mining area, a lot of them told their children they couldn't go down the mines because they understood first hand how much a danger to health it was. and thy couldn't compete on price with large open cast mines around the world.

renewables have started whole new industries and work for a new generation, maintaining and building all the changes we need, you seem to have narrowed your outlook on the world lift your head up and embrace the change its coming regardless of if you like it or not.
if we get power cuts it will just be a reminder of our unhealthy reliance on fossil fuels. remember oil companies are independent and highly profitable.

Waffle waffle waffle - none of those industries even came to the UK until recently. For decades it's been little more than installing other countries products. Glorified fitters.

Most of the Solar fitting jobs were lost as soon as FITS went and the same for all the Renewables.

What I'll be remembering is the Green Policy banning fracking, banning UK fossil fuels fields investment and Russian imports of 30% of UK diesels - the money from which is now being used to kill people in Ukraine.

I don't need your jaded opinion thank you.

 

[Dave645]

So you think introducing more expensive methods of generating electricity - which directly increases inflation - should be used as a basis for costing out Coal today ?

3.5p KwH was when the UK had the lowest cost energy supply in Europe - before Green Policy made UK generation one of the most expensive - in fact in 2017 only Italy was more expensive.

face slap, omg, is coal producing electric at 3.5p/kwh in 2022 in the uk ? if not find out what it is before you waste any more of your time or mine.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Tried to watch the video but TBH it seemed to be cherry picking and I don't agree with the premise of a lot of what was being said.

However, this point you've made is true and is what farmers DO need to be doing. However, practically speaking the technology is not available nor is the planning system willing to allow farmers to cater for their needs.

I DO think it is possible to create farm technology - not of the kind we see in Wind Turbines but something of a less efficient kind - which can be created and maintained by farmers. However, I doubt the general public or government or big business would accept farmers doing such. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see the "Environmentalists" being the most violent proponents - because I don't think they are environmentalists and they want the big pay day, even if it means Billions starve.

Yes. I thought exactly the same - cherry picking is easier to swallow if we agree with it, eh

I shared it mainly as "a bit of a balancer" to all the cherry-picked "facts" flying from the other direction, and also to show just how stuffed the current way of living appears to be.

Eg "infrastructure is up to the government to fit and maintain" has been what's happened, but following economic and societal collapse that isn't a given.

I personally think we ALL need to look at responsibility for our future, and if we want to burn energy "like no tomorrow" we need to be good at generating it, or tomorrow won't be to our liking.

It's been interesting to discover that it actually takes more energy for me to take a photo of my grazing operation and post it to TFF than it takes to "run the thing" for a fortnight.

It's also really interesting to have a broad look over threads here - eg "Farming without bagged fertiliser" or the thread I started on "planned grazing" where you get insights into the 3 tiers of change:
1.efficiencies
2.substitutions
3.redesigns

Humans are really good at adapting old ways, innovating.. but we kinda suck at pulling off U-turns or teleporting to completely new places.

I wonder if such an energy issue as we have warrants all 3 changes in reverse order - redesign systems to become increasingly unreliant on outside energy, then substitute one thing for another based on merit, and then look to make it efficent?

The motor-car would not ever have arrived out of 'breeding better horses'

 

[wanton dwarf]

I personally think we ALL need to look at responsibility for our future, and if we want to burn energy "like no tomorrow" we need to be good at generating it, or tomorrow won't be to our liking.

TBH the first step is realisation that government isn't going to help us, isn't going to provide cheap energy, is going to tax us and doesn't care - to the extent they are creating ways for others to profit from our situation.

It's not as though they haven't done the same thing before with markets & regulation.