Ive been keeping a secret...

[Farmer Keith]

The high turnover of bulls concerns me, is the genomic testing as good as it claims to be if the best bull today on paper is hung up in 12 months time?

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

all the catalogues are about 90% genomic bulls, very few proven bulls.

what happens to genomic bulls, where do they end up ? Its the bit about genomics l have doubts about. All these top quality genomic bulls, yet few make proven. They say the genomic gain is such, that each intake, is better than the last .....

I totally agree with you. The British friesian takes longer to mature imo so do we ever get a proper proven proof on a bull I don’t think we do.

 

[Happy at it]

Can't do a link but there's a lad from NI that does pretty detailed videos on dairying (farmtheoryni), that has created a bull tracker app to help farmers analyse a bulls figures over time.

Have never been that big into breeding, but it honestly never occurred to me that such large variations could possibly occur over time.

 

[Jdunn55]

why don't they stay long ?

They aren't pets.

If he isn't selling he cannot be kept.

We (well most of you) wouldn't keep cows that haven't calved for 3 years and are only giving 5 litres a day. Same for the semen companies.

 

[Jdunn55]

The high turnover of bulls concerns me, is the genomic testing as good as it claims to be if the best bull today on paper is hung up in 12 months time?

The great thing with genomic testing is it becomes more and more accurate with every genomic result taken.

So over time they become more reliable.

When the friesian genomic scale was first launched it wasn't nearly as accurate as it is now.
In 5 years time it'll be far more accurate.

What would speed the process up is if more people genomically tested their heifers. However the heads of the friesian society are not big lovers of genomics and haven't pushed this, instead advocating for the fact that because friesians produce decent bull calves you don't have to buy "expensive sexed semen" which I personally find very backwards thinking.

The high turnover of bulls is simply because better things are coming.

For instance my bull is +35kg fat and protein

His sire is + 25.5kg

His sire is +21kg (proven)

His sire is +10kg (proven)

His sire is +5kg (proven)

Given the choice of the above bulls (ignoring all other characteristics) most will want the bull doing 35kg. Yes it's less reliable but given we breed to improve its likely he will atleast match his grandsire at +21kg or be higher if not the full 35kg he's predicted at.

 

[More to life]

The great thing with genomic testing is it becomes more and more accurate with every genomic result taken.

So over time they become more reliable.

When the friesian genomic scale was first launched it wasn't nearly as accurate as it is now.
In 5 years time it'll be far more accurate.

What would speed the process up is if more people genomically tested their heifers. However the heads of the friesian society are not big lovers of genomics and haven't pushed this, instead advocating for the fact that because friesians produce decent bull calves you don't have to buy "expensive sexed semen" which I personally find very backwards thinking.

The high turnover of bulls is simply because better things are coming.

For instance my bull is +35kg fat and protein

His sire is + 25.5kg

His sire is +21kg (proven)

His sire is +10kg (proven)

His sire is +5kg (proven)

Given the choice of the above bulls (ignoring all other characteristics) most will want the bull doing 35kg. Yes it's less reliable but given we breed to improve its likely he will atleast match his grandsire at +21kg or be higher if not the full 35kg he's predicted at.

It’s easy to forget that conventionally proven sire often resulted in dissisapiintment.

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

The great thing with genomic testing is it becomes more and more accurate with every genomic result taken.

So over time they become more reliable.

When the friesian genomic scale was first launched it wasn't nearly as accurate as it is now.
In 5 years time it'll be far more accurate.

What would speed the process up is if more people genomically tested their heifers. However the heads of the friesian society are not big lovers of genomics and haven't pushed this, instead advocating for the fact that because friesians produce decent bull calves you don't have to buy "expensive sexed semen" which I personally find very backwards thinking.

The high turnover of bulls is simply because better things are coming.

For instance my bull is +35kg fat and protein

His sire is + 25.5kg

His sire is +21kg (proven)

His sire is +10kg (proven)

His sire is +5kg (proven)

Given the choice of the above bulls (ignoring all other characteristics) most will want the bull doing 35kg. Yes it's less reliable but given we breed to improve its likely he will atleast match his grandsire at +21kg or be higher if not the full 35kg he's predicted at.

What’s your bull like for fertility? Plus I hope.

 

[Farmer Keith]

The great thing with genomic testing is it becomes more and more accurate with every genomic result taken.

So over time they become more reliable.

When the friesian genomic scale was first launched it wasn't nearly as accurate as it is now.
In 5 years time it'll be far more accurate.

What would speed the process up is if more people genomically tested their heifers. However the heads of the friesian society are not big lovers of genomics and haven't pushed this, instead advocating for the fact that because friesians produce decent bull calves you don't have to buy "expensive sexed semen" which I personally find very backwards thinking.

The high turnover of bulls is simply because better things are coming.

For instance my bull is +35kg fat and protein

His sire is + 25.5kg

His sire is +21kg (proven)

His sire is +10kg (proven)

His sire is +5kg (proven)

Given the choice of the above bulls (ignoring all other characteristics) most will want the bull doing 35kg. Yes it's less reliable but given we breed to improve it’s likely he will atleast match his grandsire at +21kg or be higher if not the full 35kg he's predicted at.

Does it give you a projected liveweight? When we were using a lot of BF 10 years ago I felt the increase in production often came with an extra 25kgs of liveweight so you didn’t gain as much as you thought you were gaining. I think im right in saying PLI doesn’t or didn’t account for LW so favours the heavier cow?

 

[som farmer]

They aren't pets.

If he isn't selling he cannot be kept.

We (well most of you) wouldn't keep cows that haven't calved for 3 years and are only giving 5 litres a day. Same for the semen companies.

we have been using AI for 60 yrs, using 'quality' bulls for our replacements, as well as some natural service.

back in time, 70's av yield would have been about 4,500 - 5,000 litres a cow. Plenty of hol herds today, av 8,000.

rationing these cows, has improved considerably in the last 60 yrs, so, combine better rationing, the plus milk figures of the bulls, these cows should, in theory, be averaging 15,000 litres +

add up all the +ve milk from 60 yrs, should be 20,000 litres +

and we are nowhere near that, even the molly cuddled brood cows don't get there. My view is it is the rationing that holds cows back, to feed for 8/9,000, you are, in theory, incorrectly feeding that cow, who genetically should be capable of giving a lot more. Incorrect feeding leads to digestive disorders, acidosis etc, so we add bicarb, yeasts and a plethora of snake oil, to rectify those conditions.

or, the figures, quoted over decades are misleading.

how much better are todays genomic bulls, than last years ? Or is it just marginal gains, that only occur with better/best rationing ?

Compare genetic gain, in practice, to where the pig and chicken industries have gained, cow improvement looks a bit 'sick'.

 

[Henarar]

They aren't pets.

If he isn't selling he cannot be kept.

We (well most of you) wouldn't keep cows that haven't calved for 3 years and are only giving 5 litres a day. Same for the semen companies.

I didn't say they were pets, wouldn't they be good stock bulls though ?

 

[Jdunn55]

I didn't say they were pets, wouldn't they be good stock bulls though ?

No atrocious stock bulls once they've been in stud.

There was a bull at cogent who was known for being quiet as a mouse, he went home after his time there and nearly killed someone because there was heifers running about bulling - they aren't used to that in stud.

 

[Jdunn55]

What’s your bull like for fertility? Plus I hope.

No unfortunately that's his biggest weakness.

He's -2.8 on the friesian base
however
on the holstein base he converts to +9.9!

Remember it's the least heritable of all traits and the most influenced by management...

I won't make excuses for him. His fertility score is naff, but his production more than makes up for it in my eyes and his maternal and paternal dams have excellent fertility.

His target market is holsteins and plus 10 on there base is more than most holsteins bulls that are available today...

 

[Henarar]

No atrocious stock bulls once they've been in stud.

There was a bull at cogent who was known for being quiet as a mouse, he went home after his time there and nearly killed someone because there was heifers running about bulling - they aren't used to that in stud.

Oh I see,
another thing without much longevity in

 

[jay]

Does it give you a projected liveweight? When we were using a lot of BF 10 years ago I felt the increase in production often came with an extra 25kgs of liveweight so you didn’t gain as much as you thought you were gaining. I think im right in saying PLI doesn’t or didn’t account for LW so favours the heavier cow?

Pli now favours negative stature & body depth, because maintenance requirement is lower for smaller cows, making them "less" environmentally damaging, or so the "experts" claim

 

[som farmer]

Oh I see,
another thing without much longevity in

our old fr calved, 3 days ago, 09 born, 19000 litres last lac (24 months) and only the 2nd cow to have milk fever, this autumn. Is that enough longevity ?

calving over for now, 125 in the autumn block hfrs sept, cows oct to dec. And 62 served, from 21st dec. We don't serve sub 10 days calved, only by bull or AI if 'forgot' date.

l think the fr only had milk fever, because we stopped the transition ration, when only 4 left to calve, shows it works though.

 

[Farmer Keith]

Pli now favours negative stature & body depth, because maintenance requirement is lower for smaller cows, making them "less" environmentally damaging, or so the "experts" claim

Whatever their credentials are environmentally they’re cheaper to keep and last longer. Glad to see they’ve moved the goal posts.

 

[som farmer]

some bulls with a slightly different breeding, down near you @Jdunn55 , Penzance.

6, six month old buffalo bulls ............................ no idea if you could cross them with proper cows.

going to be a milking herd of them very close to us soon, the Newt in Somerset.

 

[In the pit]

Milking buffalo bulls ,I’d like to see that

 

[More to life]

His target market is holsteins and plus 10 on there base is more than most holsteins bulls that are available today...

nonsense don’t make stuff up

 

[Bury the Trash]

lly proven sire often resulted in dissisapiintment.

seriously tho, to the op good to see a young person doing well and happy with it.