Maedi Visna accreditation

[bovine]

Is there anything visible that can be seen on PM, that would lead you to suspect Johne's in sheep? Or is it a lab sample job? I'll often do a PM myself, if the ewe is thin, mostly to check for fluke.

They have thickened corrugated hind guts. It seems to take on a yellow tinge. I have some preserved in formalin - I will try and get you a picture.

I would never make the diagnosis for the first time based on apparent gut thickening but it would be enough for me to be highly suspicious of the condition and send samples away. Once we knew we had the infection on a farm then I'd be happy using it to confirm that sheep's cause of death. It's quite subtle.

It should perhaps be mentioned that sheep do 'sometimes' just go downhill and die, without MV, Johnes or anything else being involved.

I'd generally disagree on that point. I'd say it was very rare indeed for us to PM a dead or very thin sheep and find nothing. Some of the finer points you develop having done 100's of sheep post mortems. I'm sure you guys can open up a sheep and see fluke or a massive lung tumour. Whether you notice the slightly soft kidneys and test its urine for glucose (pulpy kidney) or notice the gut is thickened are much less likely. We have farmers who do some PMs themselves and they tend to look at liver and lungs and not much else.

An old vet pathologist once told me that all sheep die of something. I tend to heed that advice. It's just whether you bother to look for it.......

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Any guesses on our Skinny Lleyn then @bovine ?

Wasn't too bad at tupping last august, maybe a bit on the lean side. Lost weight all through autumn and winter. Fed on her own so no competition for 7 weeks before lambing, eating twice as much concentrate than the others had. Ad lib fodder beet for 5 weeks before lambing too whilst still out on grass and with seeds hay available. Lambed good triplets, one taken off and she lay on one (which nearly killed her off ). Eats like a horse, milks like a cow, never stops frantically grazing, still got beet and hay, fit as a flea, runs to trough. Her lamb is the best in the field by a long way. Absolute skin and bone but bright and alert. Gut all hangs out on her left side.

It's a mystery to my vet. Blood tested, not Johnes or MV.

 

[bovine]

Any guesses on our Skinny Lleyn then @bovine ?

It's a mystery to my vet. Blood tested, not Johnes or MV.

Blood test unreliable in sheep for Johne's. Collect a faecal sample, and get the vets to send it off for a Johne's PCR test. It's about £30 and can take 2 weeks, but seems the best test for confirming cases. If you have it you need to know for the sake of the others.

Failing that have her put down and get a post mortem. We had a similar sounding case on a farm with OPA - a contagious form of lung tumour.

 

[gatepost]

Some has to try and keep a nuclease of higher health stock, but that's why we ask the price for tups, always sad to see people head of to mart for a cheapy, the complete Icelandic national flock was culled for MV, ( more of a problem due to long housing period) every one bangs on about low cost lamb production, while buying in sheep with unknown health status!

 

[scholland]

Whole of Shetland is mv free. Less concern about it than eae, scab, cla etc but still wouldn't want to see it here! Our testing regime isn't too bad to maintain the accreditation

 

[thorney1]

We're thinking of becoming mv accredited but we've only got 15 ewes atm, does anyone know what the costs on this amount of sheep would be?

 

[andybk]

We're thinking of becoming mv accredited but we've only got 15 ewes atm, does anyone know what the costs on this amount of sheep would be?

depends if you attend sales and shows , if you dont probably not worth the hassle ,
will be couple hundred i should think , with cost of scheme and vet cost to take samples , testing is now every three years once established so only annual membership , which saves a bit,
our test was due this year , was nearly a grand all told iirc

http://www.sruc.ac.uk/info/120113/premium_sheep_and_goat_health_schemes/641/how_to_join
vet cost will be on top

 

[thorney1]

Brilliant! Thank you!

 

[liammogs]

If you were to only buy mv accredited stock, only buying from a mv sale or private mv acc breeder would you still need to test everything though they come from a mv acc place or will you need to test them all again etc?

Have been thinking of becoming mv for a while as it does open more doors for stock sales, not only tups but some years you get more ewes than tups and after the % you keep for replacements, you got more avenues with potential people willing to spend a little more than the 'comercial' buyer!

 

[Penmoel]

And the double fencing no nose to nose contact with neighbouring sheep??

 

[hilux]

If you were to only buy mv accredited stock, only buying from a mv sale or private mv acc breeder would you still need to test everything though they come from a mv acc place or will you need to test them all again etc?

Have been thinking of becoming mv for a while as it does open more doors for stock sales, not only tups but some years you get more ewes than tups and after the % you keep for replacements, you got more avenues with potential people willing to spend a little more than the 'comercial' buyer!

When they come onto your place and they're MV accredited you need to do 2 tests 6mths apart then one yearly ,then you go 2years, then 3years . Just gone through the rigmarole of it and now on 2year test. You have to do any sheep over 12 mths of age in every test. Do sometimes wonder what for ,but once your in it gets cheaper and does make a difference in society sales .

 

[andybk]

helps starting at right time of year as well , (older stock numbers only tested ) and try and do it when its right for you , ours is just after weaning and culling the older stock out so numbers are down .

 

[neilo]

When they come onto your place and they're MV accredited you need to do 2 tests 6mths apart then one yearly ,then you go 2years, then 3years . Just gone through the rigmarole of it and now on 2year test. You have to do any sheep over 12 mths of age in every test. Do sometimes wonder what for ,but once your in it gets cheaper and does make a difference in society sales .

If you have a sizeable flock, then it's not all sheep over 12 months old, but a certain percentage. I test about 130 adult ewes every 3 years (every 2 years if you have a non-MV flock on the same holding too) for a flock of about 600 adults.

All Rams need testing too, as well as any sheep bought in (within 12 months IIRC).

 

[DCB]

have just done first test all sheep over 12 months once in less number can be tested about £500 all in for 60 ewes

 

[Ysgythan]

Any one on here gone into the MV scheme lately?

Is there really any risk from this disease or is it something which SAC need to perpetuate?
We have two flocks, one of pure bred mostly registered Poll Dorset, the other pure bred mostly registered Lleyn, both native breeds and mostly homebred closed flocks, any ewes or rams bought in have been MV accredited .
We sell PD breeding ewes in sales, many of the flocks wont look at them as they are not MV, so it does restrict our market to an extent mostly for commercial farms for crossbreeding. We are considering whether its worth testing to become accredited, it is likely to cost about £1,000 in fees plus time and effort and maybe a fair bit of fencing as well.

Just wondering on the views on here

The Texel society are constantly asked by Welsh members to abandon the scheme. Just when it seems that there's headway you get a breakdown. There have been two I know if in Wales in the past four years. Instantly the question is put back...

 

[andybk]

The Texel society are constantly asked by Welsh members to abandon the scheme. Just when it seems that there's headway you get a breakdown. There have been two I know if in Wales in the past four years. Instantly the question is put back...

I know of a large commercial flock ( 000s) that had it few years ago , ewes aging prematurely and all sorts of other issues , nothing to easily put your finger on but devastating and difficult to deal with , they had to sell nearly all their ewes (straight to cull ) and start again , luckily they had two farms so could manage it .
if it was circulating within the national flock it would ruin the industry no question , so for now its a price worth paying .

 

[neilo]

I know of a large commercial flock ( 000s) that had it few years ago , ewes aging prematurely and all sorts of other issues , nothing to easily put your finger on but devastating and difficult to deal with , they had to sell nearly all their ewes (straight to cull ) and start again , luckily they had two farms so could manage it .
if it was circulating within the national flock it would ruin the industry no question , so for now its a price worth paying .

It IS circulating and I'm amazed it hasn't been picked up more often yet.

I know of a large flock that went down with similar issues, and some of the younger sheep were batched up and sold for breeding when they cleared out. Supposedly it had arrived with non-mv rams, from a flock that dropped out of the scheme after a breakdown. Both were happily spreading it a bit further.

Heard of another flock that had ET born sheep going down with it, suspected to have come from (non-mv) mule recips which had mysteriously disappeared/culled before they could be tested.

Of course, those could have been the only mule ewes and Suffolk Rams that had it, but I somehow doubt it.

It shows up as a few more ewes wasting away earlier, and a few extra incidences of mastitis. Of course lots of things can cause those symptoms, and how many commercial sheep farmers get (or can afford to get) the vet involved for diagnosis before losses have escalated.

 

[Ysgythan]

That joins the dots on a paradox I was aware of @neilo...

 

[Penmoel]

If you have a sizeable flock, then it's not all sheep over 12 months old, but a certain percentage. I test about 130 adult ewes every 3 years (every 2 years if you have a non-MV flock on the same holding too) for a flock of about 600 adults.

All Rams need testing too, as well as any sheep bought in (within 12 months IIRC).

Correct on the first test as long as certain conditions are met , only MV rams bought in and closed flock etc. The second test though is all sheep over 18 months old,.

If I remember correctly on 700 ewes the first test would cost about £1000, the second about £2,500 , as we do not really have a problem, don't sell rams and had a decent sale on our draft ewes last week to average £135 I don't see it as a cost we can carry at the moment.

It does though rule out some buyer from our stock and when showing which my daughter does , non MV sheep are VERY much looked down upon as a lower grade, despite what the sheep looks like

 

[neilo]

Correct on the first test as long as certain conditions are met , only MV rams bought in and closed flock etc. The second test though is all sheep over 18 months old,.

If I remember correctly on 700 ewes the first test would cost about £1000, the second about £2,500 , as we do not really have a problem, don't sell rams and had a decent sale on our draft ewes last week to average £135 I don't see it as a cost we can carry at the moment.

It does though rule out some buyer from our stock and when showing which my daughter does , non MV sheep are VERY much looked down upon as a lower grade, despite what the sheep looks like

Sorry, I was referring to the periodic testing, once the flock is accredited. It's of course right that every sheep is tested negative before the flock achieves accredited status.
If you can 700 sheep tested for £2500, you're doing well. When I re-established the commercial flock, I bought in 260 ewe lambs from a 'mv-monitored' (scheme doesn't exist any more) but still had to test them all. I chose to start testing them as soon as they were 12 months old, before numbers built up again. I found a couple of positives on the first test, which I culled, then had to retest the whole lot another twice. A worse scenario would have been to have left those two in a non-accredited flock, where it would slowly spread.
However, I was told at the time, that spread would be very slow/negligible in a flock that is never housed or fed in troughs, as there would be little nose to nose contact.