To vaccinate or not?

[Clive Tee]

I used to HeptvacP+ all my lambs including fats, then 4 years ago I did the first dose but didn't do the booster. Nothing happened. Since then I've not vaccinated any fat lambs at all. Again, nothing has happened, no problems (yet !!!). Last year I had plenty of lambs over the winter for sale in spring, still no problems.

My ewes are vaccinated 4 weeks prior to start of lambing and was told that this will carry over to the lambs for months, longer than the official figures. Can't remember who told me but thought it was a vet. So my thinking was that most will have gone by the time cover expires, but certainly not true last year as lambs were smaller and I kept them back.

Just wondered what everyone else does and if anyone else doesn't vaccinate? Worried I've just been lucky and thinking of going back to vaccinating.

.

 

[Big Al]

Vaccines work best when all animals are covered by it as it prevents a build up of bacteria in the local environment. If you are keeping some lambs into the back end then I personally think its taking a big risk not vaccinating them, afterall you dont have to lose many lambs to pay for all your lambs to be covered. There is maybe a more acceptable level of risk relying on maternal antibodies for lambs upto around 16 weeks. You could vaccinate any smaller lambs that you dont expect to be finished as quickly, maybe also use a cheaper vaccine without P like Covexin which is around half the price, if you don't think Pneumonia is a problem on your farm.
I currently use Covexin 8 on my sheep, but this year I have been having an increasing problem with ewes getting Pneumonia I am probably going to move on to Heptavac instead, but will probably stick to covexin with the prime lambs as they will hopefully mostly be sold at arounf 16-20 weeks.

 

[Yale]

We do them after weaning,2 doses,4-6 weeks apart as vaccination earlier presents logistical problems.

We do keep quite a few until after Christmas so I feel it does protect against losses.

Wouldn't you use Ovivac?(or hept if the pack size suits the bunch.)

 

[harperfarmer]

We've never vaccinated the lambs as we try to get them gone asap off creep, majority by the end of July. All the ewes are done with Heptavac that covers the lambs for the period of time we have them. I think if we weren't creeping lambs and had them around for longer we would do what others have suggested, and Ovivac at weaning.

 

[Tim W]

You pays your money or take the risk---

Over the last 20 years I have never vaccinated for clostridia or pasturella ---but last year my clostridial losses were growing and I vaccinated 2 flocks with Covexin

Results? Not had a count up to do any comparisons yet but my initial observations are that the vaccination has saved some lamb losses ---just not sure if it justifies the vaccine/labour costs

 

[Spartacus]

Never do anything but gimmer lambs intended for future breeding, always to them at weaning and then 4 weeks later.

 

[andybk]

its a big gamble , more on weather than anything else , if cost is an issue , covexin is only pennies really against possible losses and can be done with worm dose ,pulpy kidney is the biggest gamble a sudden intake of rich young grass / clover (after a thunder storm) could cost dear at some point , Pasturella similar , Would never concider , not doing it after loosing lambs in the past , and the worst case was ewe lambs breaking out of keep in december and eating very young wheat seedlings in the next field .
And cover from ewes milk will only last 8 weeks at best .

I have been told by someone who accidentally did his with wrong marks on gun , a half dose will work just as well in most cases , certainly the second dose if done early enough ,They rang manufacturers and was told not to worry to much , they always cover themselves well with dose rates ,

 

[Clive Tee]

Never do anything but gimmer lambs intended for future breeding, always to them at weaning and then 4 weeks later.

Spartacus, How long have you been doing that and have you had any difference in number of deaths in each group? I always jag any replacements as well.

'

 

[sean m]

I used to HeptvacP+ all my lambs including fats, then 4 years ago I did the first dose but didn't do the booster. Nothing happened. Since then I've not vaccinated any fat lambs at all. Again, nothing has happened, no problems (yet !!!). Last year I had plenty of lambs over the winter for sale in spring, still no problems.

My ewes are vaccinated 4 weeks prior to start of lambing and was told that this will carry over to the lambs for months, longer than the official figures. Can't remember who told me but thought it was a vet. So my thinking was that most will have gone by the time cover expires, but certainly not true last year as lambs were smaller and I kept them back.

Just wondered what everyone else does and if anyone else doesn't vaccinate? Worried I've just been lucky and thinking of going back to vaccinating.

.

havent vaccinated for last 7 yrs ,would lose 4/5 lambs between tailing and weaning,not boasting,nothing to do with my shepherding skills its just how it is

 

[exmoor dave]

ewes are on heptivac system

main problem here is pulpy at 3-5wks, so the ewes dose covers the lambs via the colostrum

don't vac any lambs

lambs would be 8-10 weeks old at the earliest by the time both jabs are administered and the lamb is covered, biggest loses are in the first 4 weeks of the lambs life i find.
always lose odd lambs through out the year, think its unlikely that the jab will stop this because there's so many things that kill a lamb

 

[CharcoalWally]

Always jagged with Heptavac P in the past. Then stopped using it for a variety of reasons. About 10 years ago I was losing a number of lambs at about 3-4 weeks of age. My vet recommended going back on to the vaccine system and I did. Over the next two years I kept on losing lambs at the same age and I stopped the vaccine. Ever since then I haven't lost anything like the same lambs that I was then.

Conclusion - the lambs probably weren't being lost to clostridial problems. But that's just me , I wouldn't ever make the same suggestion to others not knowing their flock health.

 

[Spartacus]

Spartacus, How long have you been doing that and have you had any difference in number of deaths in each group? I always jag any replacements as well.

'

Always done it that way, one year we had ewe lambs away wintering at one spot, lost ten in two weeks, pm said clost disease but none specific, wether lambs at another place and never lost even one all through winter.

 

[Pan mixer]

Never have vaccinated a lamb, we lamb late and sell the following April, can't think that our losses have ever been as high as 1%

 

[Cow1]

I vaccinate lambs 3 times with Heptavac P. First at 6 weeks old, second 4 to 6 weeks later then an autumn booster before going on roots. Lamb losses have been reduced whilst suckling so that once the tails have dropped loses are minimal. By using Heptavac any ewe lambs saved are already on the system. Used to use Coxexin on ewes but lost too many ewes to pneumonia.

 

[Clive Tee]

Thanks for the replies, very mixed so not sure what to do. Will have to think on it.

Cheers

-

 

[neilo]

Is vaccinating lambs not like an insurance policy. You keeping paying out ever increasing premiums, and rarely make a claim, but if you're not covered and clostridial disease hits, then you would wish you'd paid up. Some of the clostridial diseases can be quite extensive IIRC, not just the odd few you might lose to pulpy kidney, we just rarely see them these days because most people vaccinate.

My ewes are on Heptavac P+ and the lambs are all done with Ovivac P+ at the first worming and the next time they are handled. The increasing price of the vaccine has got me wondering about not doing male lambs though. If I am late doing it, I usually get a couple die suddenly, presumably from pasteurella (occasionally DIY PM them). Early indoor lambs, even more so.

 

[Clive Tee]

Is vaccinating lambs not like an insurance policy. You keeping paying out ever increasing premiums, and rarely make a claim, but if you're not covered and clostridial disease hits, then you would wish you'd paid up. Some of the clostridial diseases can be quite extensive IIRC, not just the odd few you might lose to pulpy kidney, we just rarely see them these days because most people vaccinate.

My ewes are on Heptavac P+ and the lambs are all done with Ovivac P+ at the first worming and the next time they are handled. The increasing price of the vaccine has got me wondering about not doing male lambs though. If I am late doing it, I usually get a couple die suddenly, presumably from pasteurella (occasionally DIY PM them). Early indoor lambs, even more so.

I think you've nailed on the head Neil. It's an insurance, or conversely a gamble if you don't do it. Like insurance, you can't just take into account one years premiums, it's year after year after year. So it's £1000 just for the vaccine this year, so £10,000 over 10 years, plus all the work. It's probably quite likely that if you tot it, occasionally getting a disaster, then it may still not be worthwhile. But it's still not good to have even one disaster, so I guess you're paying for piece of mind. And it's not just money, so that'll might sway me, but it's hard when you done thousands of lambs and never had an issue.

Anyhow, still thinking on it. Hopefully by the time I've stopped thinking, they'll have gone to market .

'

 

[Big Al]

Am I right in thinking that its only the pasteurella element of ovivac and heptavac that need the double vaccination 4 weeks apart to be effective. The instructions on vaccinating with covexin only requires a single injection for lambs covered by maternal antibodies.

 

[andybk]

I think you've nailed on the head Neil. It's an insurance, or conversely a gamble if you don't do it. Like insurance, you can't just take into account one years premiums, it's year after year after year. So it's £1000 just for the vaccine this year, so £10,000 over 10 years, plus all the work. It's probably quite likely that if you tot it, occasionally getting a disaster, then it may still not be worthwhile. But it's still not good to have even one disaster, so I guess you're paying for piece of mind. And it's not just money, so that'll might sway me, but it's hard when you done thousands of lambs and never had an issue.

Anyhow, still thinking on it. Hopefully by the time I've stopped thinking, they'll have gone to market .

'

Like with most agricultural inputs , the companies that make them tend to charge what they think they can get away with rather than work on a margin , we see this when we get to look at prices other countries are paying ,
probably we should look at the recent MMR fiasco in children , the fact many of us vaccinate has kept clostridials well under control ,if we all stopped , as time went on it could be a real disaster for many .

 

[Y Fan Wen]

Here with hill flocks, the ewe lambs get their first when we draw the ram lambs in August and the second when they are weaned in September. I don't care about the 4wks much. Gathering a hill flock is such an evolution that everything has to get shoehorned around it.
Dad always used to leave the first dose until October when they were due to go to wintering but I find that the first heavy dews of October are when you get the losses.
I do use the P component as we had such a hammering one winter with the replacements. Once bitten...