Whatever happened to casting your eye over a gate?

[Jackov Altraids]

I was sceptical about the need for plate meters and sward sticks, but I am told they are very useful when managing grazing.
I am then interested in precision grazing which concentrates more on time scales.
I see I can now pay to get pasture remotely monitored and future predicted;

PASTORAL - Environment Systems

PASTORAL is working with farmers across the country to develop a digital tool providing near real-time pasture biomass and carbon data.

envsys.co.uk

I still tend to go by what I can see over the gate and a decent weather forecast.

What is the future?

 

[milkloss]

 

[hendrebc]

Platemeters and swardsticks are useful but you still have to go and look at the grass when your walking a field to measure it you look at the grass more than you would just looking over a gate. They are more for knowing how much grass you have and how long it will last than anything I find mine surprisingly accurate in spring, autumn and winter for feed budgeting but less so in summer when grass is higher dry matter and stemmier. You can eyeball it of course but something consistent that can't be fudged is more reliable within its limitations.
I'm not convinced about the satellite measuring grass because it won't tell you what quality the grass is if its yellow and rank or green and leafy. Im told its fairly accurate as long as it isnt raining or cloudy.....
As for measuring carbon from space that is science fiction they can't measure it accurately in a lab never mind from thousands of miles away.

 

[egbert]

I was sceptical about the need for plate meters and sward sticks, but I am told they are very useful when managing grazing.
I am then interested in precision grazing which concentrates more on time scales.
I see I can now pay to get pasture remotely monitored and future predicted;

PASTORAL - Environment Systems

PASTORAL is working with farmers across the country to develop a digital tool providing near real-time pasture biomass and carbon data.

envsys.co.uk

I still tend to go by what I can see over the gate and a decent weather forecast.

What is the future?

A dry old Cumbrian of my acquaint - a consummate lifelong stockman of a very high calibre- will occasionally start asking innocent questions of 'experts'- or anyone he thinks will be good for a bit of fun, when we're met at farm visit type events.
'Ah'm confused' he admitted to a dairy consultant on one trip, 'I've been farming all ma life, and now i've read in't Farmers Weekly that I've got to have some kind of a platform to graze. What do they do? Where do I get one of these platforms?' (and I'm shortening the monologue here somewhat)
'And apparently, I need a grazing wedge.....what's that look like? A've never had a grazing wedge before'.
Taking his lead, I introduced the topic of plate meters. 'What're they?' he innocently asked all agog, so the consultant could explain how you measure your grass all technical like.
'Blow me' says our man 'Is that so? Ah've bin doing it wrong all these years.... I just look down at ma boots to see how far up the grass comes. Sometimes, I just look over the gate to see how much grass there is'.
I chipped in that I didn't always even need to look over the gate to know a bunch of sheep would be getting hungry!

The consultant knew all parties all too well, and played along....but our man certainly has the measure of such things.

 

[Chae1]

NZ tech guys, get with it!

I love when people like the above, get torn into the "experts" . Some people take them and there theories apart bit by bit.

 

[neilo]

NZ tech guys, get with it!

I love when people like the above, get torn into the "experts" . Some people take them and there theories apart bit by bit.

Yet so many of those ‘wise, old fellas’ still set stock and complain of their ground getting ‘sheep sick’ once they’ve removed all the productive grasses and clovers from the sward…
The messages about improving grazing management that these ‘experts’ are valid, but they do overcomplicate things when they get carried away. Of course, they can then sell you consultancy visits, a Farmax subscription or even just membership of their discussion groups….

Platemeters are just an expensive way of measuring how far the grass comes up your boot, and away of producing consistent numbers to put into records, be that in a notebook or on a puter. They have such a degree of inbuilt inaccuracy that they are no more accurate than seeing how far it comes up your boot, but do give a trend.

 

[egbert]

NZ tech guys, get with it!

I love when people like the above, get torn into the "experts" . Some people take them and there theories apart bit by bit.

My friend does it all the better for being a very quiet spoken old chap, seemingly all hesitant and worried 'he hasn't been doing it right'.
(When most of us in the group know full well he is a sublime grassland and fell stock farmer)

 

[unlacedgecko]

I'm sure everyone measures their grass, works out their livestock's demand and does a feed budget.

I just lack experience, so rely on plate measure, live weights and computers to formalise it all for me.

 

[hendrebc]

Yet so many of those ‘wise, old fellas’ still set stock and complain of their ground getting ‘sheep sick’ once they’ve removed all the productive grasses and clovers from the sward…
The messages about improving grazing management that these ‘experts’ are valid, but they do overcomplicate things when they get carried away. Of course, they can then sell you consultancy visits, a Farmax subscription or even just membership of their discussion groups….

Platemeters are just an expensive way of measuring how far the grass comes up your boot, and away of producing consistent numbers to put into records, be that in a notebook or on a puter. They have such a degree of inbuilt inaccuracy that they are no more accurate than seeing how far it comes up your boot, but do give a trend.

They must still use a horse and cart and gather loose hay with a pitchfork as well.
It's just a bit of technology to make your life a bit easier. I find it very helpful and my accountant agrees that it's working. I don't care what anyone else thinks.
When the alternative to grazed grass is so expensive now you don't have to save much bought in feed to make it worthwhile. A platemeter is about £400 and agrinet subscription is another £100 a year. That's not even 2 tonne of cake anymore. It takes an hour or two to measure as often as you think its needed I go every fortnight when I'm going round the stock anyway. From February to November when I go round measuring I can tell you to the day roughly when I would run out of grass. But you still need to go out and look at it all before making any decisions its not magic just useful.

 

[egbert]

I'm sure everyone measures their grass, works out their livestock's demand and does a feed budget.

I just lack experience, so rely on plate measure, live weights and computers to formalise it all for me.

It's not quite as advanced here.
If and when after grass on mowing ground is running out for the inbye flock, they might see a round bale in a feeder.
If they're not looking too fit, blocks/ licks might go out.
If they're needing more, a few pounds of nuts out the bag as i go past.
(the hill ewes have to take pot luck....they either live or they don't. There's not much point in mollycoddling them up there...you're only multiplying your problems)

There's no budget. If I had to feed em too much year in year out, I'd reduce numbers.
Can never plan ahead or have a fixed pattern, as events dictate requirements.
This year, although it never burnt up here, there was still a marked lack of volume of after grass.
So the hill ewes were tupped on fairly short keep, and chucked back out tootsweet, while inbyes are needing some grub sooner than normal.
Another year, we might need to hold cattle on autumnal aftergrass for some reason....same result.
The third year it will all go sweet, and the little blighters will skid along with next to nothing all winter.

I take it the formula tells you this if it isn't instinct.
Either way, if you can't adapt to such things on the hoof, you mightn't be suited for the job.

 

[spin cycle]

my lot just go stand by fence weak spot...I then have 6 hours to find something else

 

[BELOWAVERAGE]

Yet so many of those ‘wise, old fellas’ still set stock and complain of their ground getting ‘sheep sick’ once they’ve removed all the productive grasses and clovers from the sward…
The messages about improving grazing management that these ‘experts’ are valid, but they do overcomplicate things when they get carried away. Of course, they can then sell you consultancy visits, a Farmax subscription or even just membership of their discussion groups….

Platemeters are just an expensive way of measuring how far the grass comes up your boot, and away of producing consistent numbers to put into records, be that in a notebook or on a puter. They have such a degree of inbuilt inaccuracy that they are no more accurate than seeing how far it comes up your boot, but do give a trend.

I was thinking the other day about the MLC, you'd be younger than me so might not remember, but they used to do a grass to meat award every year ( at least I think that's what it was) I remember one year some one from the Welsh border I think won it, everything was set stocked, mule ewes and Suffolk tups and black Hereford cow's and Charolais bulls, everything was running together, they never weaned a calf, they all went fat off the cow, same with the lambs I think but probably tail enders were weaned, flys in the face of everything that is preached now but they couldn't have been that inefficient.

 

[Chae1]

I'm sure everyone measures their grass, works out their livestock's demand and does a feed budget.

I just lack experience, so rely on plate measure, live weights and computers to formalise it all for me.

Like most things in agriculture grass growth is at the mercy of the weather.

I'm a textbook geek. and would like to farm from a spreadsheet, but I've found so far in life it's not practical.

Turnout date and budgeting grass growth for example. Wtf knows when spring will arrive and get first flush of growth? I'd say there's a 8 week window when it "might" arrive.

It might arrive, then it might snow, frost for 3 weeks.

You've just to fly by the seat of your pants in my view and make decisions based on past experience on your farm.

 

[hendrebc]

It's not quite as advanced here.
If and when after grass on mowing ground is running out for the inbye flock, they might see a round bale in a feeder.
If they're not looking too fit, blocks/ licks might go out.
If they're needing more, a few pounds of nuts out the bag as i go past.
(the hill ewes have to take pot luck....they either live or they don't. There's not much point in mollycoddling them up there...you're only multiplying your problems)

There's no budget. If I had to feed em too much year in year out, I'd reduce numbers.
Can never plan ahead or have a fixed pattern, as events dictate requirements.
This year, although it never burnt up here, there was still a marked lack of volume of after grass.
So the hill ewes were tupped on fairly short keep, and chucked back out tootsweet, while inbyes are needing some grub sooner than normal.
Another year, we might need to hold cattle on autumnal aftergrass for some reason....same result.
The third year it will all go sweet, and the little blighters will skid along with next to nothing all winter.

I take it the formula tells you this if it isn't instinct.
Either way, if you can't adapt to such things on the hoof, you mightn't be suited for the job.

You still have to adapt to what is happening in real terms measuring just gives you more information to make better decisions earlier.

 

[neilo]

It's not quite as advanced here.
If and when after grass on mowing ground is running out for the inbye flock, they might see a round bale in a feeder.
If they're not looking too fit, blocks/ licks might go out.
If they're needing more, a few pounds of nuts out the bag as i go past.
(the hill ewes have to take pot luck....they either live or they don't. There's not much point in mollycoddling them up there...you're only multiplying your problems)

There's no budget. If I had to feed em too much year in year out, I'd reduce numbers.
Can never plan ahead or have a fixed pattern, as events dictate requirements.
This year, although it never burnt up here, there was still a marked lack of volume of after grass.
So the hill ewes were tupped on fairly short keep, and chucked back out tootsweet, while inbyes are needing some grub sooner than normal.
Another year, we might need to hold cattle on autumnal aftergrass for some reason....same result.
The third year it will all go sweet, and the little blighters will skid along with next to nothing all winter.

I take it the formula tells you this if it isn't instinct.
Either way, if you can't adapt to such things on the hoof, you mightn't be suited for the job.

You are doing a budget, albeit in your head rather than on paper/computer. You know how many head of stock you have, and how many bales (or area of crop, etc) you will need for them. I suspect you know that from experience. The ‘experts’ method of doing a feed budget allows those without that experience to arrive at a similar figure.

I certainly agree that you need to be flexible enough to adjust the system as you go along though, be that by chucking some expensive feed out, or buying some more keep/bales.

I’ve been in a Welsh govt funded pasture group for the last couple of years, which has been heavily pushing feed budgeting, etc. Interesting stuff and always possible to glean a bit of useful info from any farm walks, talks, etc ime. A few of us that are, let’s say ‘a bit longer in the tooth’, all thought the prescriptive system lacked flexibility, as shown up in a drought like we’ve had this year. The experts’ answer is obviously to offload stock, at just the same time as every one else is, then to increase stock numbers when everyone else is back in the market.

The message about increasing grassland output, and profitability, through better grassland management is a good one, but adapting the system ‘on the hoof’ is essential.

 

[egbert]

my lot just go stand by fence weak spot...I then have 6 hours to find something else

ah...autonomous shepherding. Leave em, and they'll move themselves!

 

[egbert]

You are doing a budget, albeit in your head rather than on paper/computer. You know how many head of stock you have, and how many bales (or area of crop, etc) you will need for them. I suspect you know that from experience. The ‘experts’ method of doing a feed budget allows those without that experience to arrive at a similar figure.

I certainly agree that you need to be flexible enough to adjust the system as you go along though, be that by chucking some expensive feed out, or buying some more keep/bales.

I’ve been in a Welsh govt funded pasture group for the last couple of years, which has been heavily pushing feed budgeting, etc. Interesting stuff and always possible to glean a bit of useful info from any farm walks, talks, etc ime. A few of us that are, let’s say ‘a bit longer in the tooth’, all thought the prescriptive system lacked flexibility, as shown up in a drought like we’ve had this year. The experts’ answer is obviously to offload stock, at just the same time as every one else is, then to increase stock numbers when everyone else is back in the market.

The message about increasing grassland output, and profitability, through better grassland management is a good one, but adapting the system ‘on the hoof’ is essential.

I don't like the word 'budget', it implies there is some kind of limit, or ceiling.
There isn't...I'm a very mean feeder, but in the end, if they need it, I try to see they get it.
MVF and 2 different fodder merchants are all ready for the call....
The fiscal values don't really matter once you're in the winter- unless, as you say, you simply bail when the wheel is coming off.

It's reviewing the outcomes, pref over several years, that teaches which way to nudge numbers/breeds etc.

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

Now us old Graziers who still set stock and try to have an easy life don't have much need for these gadgets.
From lambing time to weaning time we run the same numbers per acre and if the grass gets away then we add a few cattle.

We have to be able to throw a silver sixpence as far as possible on the last day of May and still be able to see it so you can pick it up. That is our plate meter!!!!
The only thing that tends to make this system go wrong is a long summer drought, but not much we can do about it as we don't have any of them new fangled wedges either!!

Happy New Year everyone.

 

[Bury the Trash]

I was sceptical about the need for plate meters and sward sticks, but I am told they are very useful when managing grazing.
I am then interested in precision grazing which concentrates more on time scales.
I see I can now pay to get pasture remotely monitored and future predicted;

PASTORAL - Environment Systems

PASTORAL is working with farmers across the country to develop a digital tool providing near real-time pasture biomass and carbon data.

envsys.co.uk

I still tend to go by what I can see over the gate and a decent weather forecast.

What is the future?

The future shows whats worthwhile or not ,what's novelty or not, what's doable or not.
People soon get cheesed off and do what's simpler and basic and what comes naturally to them that will be the case long after the latest app software techy tool that talks to your phone etc have gone and been forgotten about.
Anyway, No matter what grass ive got saved up at the moment ,utilising it with out big waste is impossible , heavy wet ground dont graze well in Winter despite what any latest craze says .lol.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

My opening gambit was genuine and I appreciate all the reponses.
I regularly feel something of a luddite but I always wonder how I can use the information if I had it.
You can't simply turn your grazing up or down according to what an algorithm suggests will be available.

I was also interested to see if anyone would have further comments to make on the website.
I think we all may be subject to their services soon;


"Monitoring is an important part of assessing the effectiveness of any land management intervention or policy objective. Without a robust, fit for purpose monitoring scheme it is not possible to judge whether the interventions, policies and/or programmes are fulfilling their objectives and delivering environmental protection. Environment Systems has helped design and implement a wide range of informative successful monitoring programmes. These include work under the Scottish Rural Development Programme, Welsh Government Schemes and more recently in England where Environment Systems was accepted on to Natural England’s Environmental Stewardship Monitoring and Evaluation framework.

We have used a range of statistical methods coupled with innovative technological solutions to deliver a high value cost effective evaluation of agri-environment schemes and suggested ways of monitoring the effectiveness of interventions and policies designed to enhance ecosystem goods and services. The ability to ascertain what is working well and what is not having the desired effect enables policy makers to adjust the interventions to ensure they meet the actual requirements.

The combination of tailored offerings using remote sensing, statistical analysis and field work makes it possible to find a cost effective way to monitor and ensure the best outcome for money invested."


Also interestingly, their stakeholders;