Who do you trust!!

[Wolds Beef]

I am baffled!! I still have about 2 loads of feed barley to go from a temporary store. I have had moisture deductions from at least 2 of the previous loads. I have a sinar spear which told me all that we harvested was under 15%. I had the buyer over on Wednesday and he speared all over the heap. We put my spear in the bucket 14.7%. His Dickeyjohn tested it at 14.4%. My casual who helps me brought a Sparex hand held meter which read 14.2%. I then received a phone call today from my buyer who had tested it at the lab at16.2%. Moisture deductions make a poor price even poorer. Discuss!!

 

[Grain Buyer]

Fresh cut grain? Green Grains? Variable? Different parts of field, especially headlands and under trees? Non calibrated moisture meters? Poor storage? In all seriousness, if you think it's under 15% ask for an independent sample, get weights and measures and trading standards involved, fight your corner! don't do what a farmer did to me last year, which was call me every name under the sun, rant and rave and threaten legal action over an ergot rejection. Then I spoke to his loader driver who casually mentioned they all knew it was full of ergot at harvest time!!!

 

[FFC]

I have had a similar case. My wheat was testing just under 14%, when a load went to a local store via a merchant I had a call to say they made it 18%! I said bring it back and tip it in my shed again if that's the case. Mysteriously they had then made a mistake supposedly and it went in fine! Seemed very strange.

 

[damaged]

Many years back a farmer had 3 loads booked to go. He received a phone call saying the first two were fine but the last would have deductions. Really he said, it's not even been loaded from the farm yet!
Nothing changes

 

[B'o'B]

I am baffled!! I still have about 2 loads of feed barley to go from a temporary store. I have had moisture deductions from at least 2 of the previous loads. I have a sinar spear which told me all that we harvested was under 15%. I had the buyer over on Wednesday and he speared all over the heap. We put my spear in the bucket 14.7%. His Dickeyjohn tested it at 14.4%. My casual who helps me brought a Sparex hand held meter which read 14.2%. I then received a phone call today from my buyer who had tested it at the lab at16.2%. Moisture deductions make a poor price even poorer. Discuss!!

Did you keep a sample back from the lorry as it was loaded?
ACCS can have its uses as we have used retained samples to dispute deductions and had them removed.
Failing that do the sampling yourself from the part of the heap you loaded the lorry from and send it to a lab for testing.
I don't trust spears to give accurate moister reading, I don't really trust hand held moister meters to be spot on either, ultimately the only test that really counts is an oven test.

 

[4course]

the year moisture standard went down to 15% was an early dry harvest here and in june id sold 2 load forward for movement before 15 aug at a price some£10 above spot come the 10th we were full of grain so got on to merchant to move ,on the 15th first load was picked up, the driver was as proud as punch cos he had a new fangled mobile phone the size of a brick,so after a chat he said he would ring once he had tipped 2hrs later driver rang with weight saying tipped fine. following morning got a phone call to say load had been rejected and moved to a drier and was subject to an £8 claim as it was15.2m needless to say after giving the lying cheating ba-------ds the information that I knew the load had been tipped got paid in full for the first load the premium for the second load as the discussion went on the lines of the moisture was 15.2 and you are out of contract so we can do what we like until I pointed out that they were out of theirs re collection date which I demanded a loading fee of £8 and since that day have never dealt with them since and this was a multi national

 

[Grain Buyer]

Many years back a farmer had 3 loads booked to go. He received a phone call saying the first two were fine but the last would have deductions. Really he said, it's not even been loaded from the farm yet!
Nothing changes

this happens occasionally. Nothing to do with merchants trying one on. Usually a case the mill has muddled intake numbers up, or the haulier has quoted a number wrong. The apparently simple error of saying 12 instead of 21 then results in the farmer getting a call who hasn't loaded. This is quickly rectified and is never a case of trying it on. If you think about it, you'd have to be pretty stupid to call someone who you knew hadn't loaded grain to try and make a claim.

 

[franklin]

I think that merchants are caught between a rock and a hard place. And it all comes down to the wording on the grain contracts. Specifically the bit which says that *intake* weights / moistures are what will be used. And that is the single cause of the problem. A contract for a grain sale is between, in most cases, farmer and merchant, but the merchant applies penalties based on the end-user / third party, who themselves stand to gain / loose as they will have a contract between themselves and the merchant.

This *ought* be resolved by all intakes having their sample kit calibrated to the same standards, and tbh I would expect *large* mills etc to be calibrated better than my own little moisture meter. The pisstake arrives when you find out that there is, for example, one user of barley who samples halfway through a load when it is being tipped out of the wagon. Once you know that, when they ring to say £1 off, and you ask them to send it back, then amazingly that £1 vanishes. Or you have a run of grain all getting knocks from a certain large flour mill, so you decide to send all your grain to them through a central store.

It's also worth noting now we have passports etc, that every place you send grain, and remember your contract is *not* (usually) with them, will know how far that grain has travelled and the cost to you of them sending it back. Am I sceptical to be told "it was a £4 knock off, but a fiver to bring it back / tip elsewhere so I was doing YOU a favour"?

It's not the merchants fault. It's just that they are put in a position of having to trust their end user, who might take 500,000 tons, to give fair and truthful results which directly apply to a contract between the merchant and the farmer who sold them 30t. It's the contracts fault.

If you consider a mill that uses say 500,000t of grain, then if we all paid a 10p per ton levy, then that would pay for an farmers representitive to sit at intake checking it all. Given the cost of rejections and claims in mill, haulier, farmer and merchant time, I would think that was quite a reasonable idea........

 

[7800]

I am baffled!! I still have about 2 loads of feed barley to go from a temporary store. I have had moisture deductions from at least 2 of the previous loads. I have a sinar spear which told me all that we harvested was under 15%. I had the buyer over on Wednesday and he speared all over the heap. We put my spear in the bucket 14.7%. His Dickeyjohn tested it at 14.4%. My casual who helps me brought a Sparex hand held meter which read 14.2%. I then received a phone call today from my buyer who had tested it at the lab at16.2%. Moisture deductions make a poor price even poorer. Discuss!!

Looks like none of your initial moisture testing was good enough. It should have been multiple representative samples taken back to the lab for testing.

 

[DRC]

It's well known around here that there's certain mills that seem to come up with higher moisture readings than others.
It's a lottery .

 

[B'o'B]

http://europe.ohaus.com/europe/en/home/products/product-families/MB25-EU.aspx
I got myself one of these. It wasn't cheap but it will have paid for itself even on our modest tonnage.
We use it to check our protimeter through the day (it is always wrong even when it has been adjusted but it is useful to know how wrong). If we get a claim I'll test the retained sample and I can be pretty confident I'll be within 0.15% of a proper oven test. Tell a merchant this and it seems to help them fight your corner with the end user when facing a claim.
I think it is going to be time to replace the protimeter this year as it is now varying wildly and is not constant with its error.

 

[Iben]

I think that merchants are caught between a rock and a hard place. And it all comes down to the wording on the grain contracts. Specifically the bit which says that *intake* weights / moistures are what will be used. And that is the single cause of the problem. A contract for a grain sale is between, in most cases, farmer and merchant, but the merchant applies penalties based on the end-user / third party, who themselves stand to gain / loose as they will have a contract between themselves and the merchant.

This *ought* be resolved by all intakes having their sample kit calibrated to the same standards, and tbh I would expect *large* mills etc to be calibrated better than my own little moisture meter. The pisstake arrives when you find out that there is, for example, one user of barley who samples halfway through a load when it is being tipped out of the wagon. Once you know that, when they ring to say £1 off, and you ask them to send it back, then amazingly that £1 vanishes. Or you have a run of grain all getting knocks from a certain large flour mill, so you decide to send all your grain to them through a central store.

It's also worth noting now we have passports etc, that every place you send grain, and remember your contract is *not* (usually) with them, will know how far that grain has travelled and the cost to you of them sending it back. Am I sceptical to be told "it was a £4 knock off, but a fiver to bring it back / tip elsewhere so I was doing YOU a favour"?

It's not the merchants fault. It's just that they are put in a position of having to trust their end user, who might take 500,000 tons, to give fair and truthful results which directly apply to a contract between the merchant and the farmer who sold them 30t. It's the contracts fault.

If you consider a mill that uses say 500,000t of grain, then if we all paid a 10p per ton levy, then that would pay for an farmers representitive to sit at intake checking it all. Given the cost of rejections and claims in mill, haulier, farmer and merchant time, I would think that was quite a reasonable idea........

A good idea. Has been discussed a few times for packing potatoes where it is usually by visual inspection only, and varies greatly based on supply and demand.

Cost to the industry of rejection is huge.

Should add, never ever have I delivered a load of grain that was deemed to be lower in moisture than I have made it with my sqc calibrated moisture meter.

 

[JonL]

Merchants, labs and stores are compelled to ensure correct calibration of moisture meters under TASCC and so undertake proficiency testing and ring testing of instruments. I have yet to have a straight answer whether there are any rules compelling mills to do the same. It is my suspicion that there isn't hence some mills test inaccurately and I have seen enough evidence of this over the years to know this to be the case. Whether deliberate or incompetence I couldn't say. What I can say is if you have a thorough sampling and testing procedure on farm, know you are right and are prepared to fight your corner, more often than not you will win.

 

[Iben]

I can't believe any end user would alter the calibration of their equipment in order to gain a few claims. The risk and cost of getting caught are far to high.

But................. There are hundreds of suspicious claims. No smoke without fire and all that.

 

[Barleycorn]

I remember in the good old days once we had a bit of barley that was a little damp. That's ok says the lorry driver, I'll take a sample now and leave it on the engine cover, should be dry by the time I get to the docks!
Happy days!

 

[Honest john]

I am baffled!! I still have about 2 loads of feed barley to go from a temporary store. I have had moisture deductions from at least 2 of the previous loads. I have a sinar spear which told me all that we harvested was under 15%. I had the buyer over on Wednesday and he speared all over the heap. We put my spear in the bucket 14.7%. His Dickeyjohn tested it at 14.4%. My casual who helps me brought a Sparex hand held meter which read 14.2%. I then received a phone call today from my buyer who had tested it at the lab at16.2%. Moisture deductions make a poor price even poorer. Discuss!!

Is your grain straight off the combine or has it been in store some time ?

 

[mikep]

Never had a problem in all my years. Must be lucky but always near enough what I thought and tested. Have had bad ergot years but talk to the buyer before it goes and sort it out.
Only rejection I ever had was aload of peas, I pointed out to the merchant that I would be delighted to get a reduced price for the load as we didn't grow peas.

 

[Honest john]

http://europe.ohaus.com/europe/en/home/products/product-families/MB25-EU.aspx
I got myself one of these. It wasn't cheap but it will have paid for itself even on our modest tonnage.
We use it to check our protimeter through the day (it is always wrong even when it has been adjusted but it is useful to know how wrong). If we get a claim I'll test the retained sample and I can be pretty confident I'll be within 0.15% of a proper oven test. Tell a merchant this and it seems to help them fight your corner with the end user when facing a claim.
I think it is going to be time to replace the protimeter this year as it is now varying wildly and is not constant with its error.

Speaking as a farmer.
Grain can vary a lot off the combine, different ripeness across a field, weed seeds, shower of rain etc etc.
I personally don't more any crop off field, only when it's settled down in store.
When we where last cutting by midnight the combine said it was 16.5%
We tested the next day, lab test at 14.7 & the same from our Marconi ( that has been away this summer ) So the dew must have been fooling the combine meter.
But the end user just sucks it into there tester, which prints off a result.
What more should they do ?

I still believe a ground sample from a Marconi type can't be beaten & was how the trade did it when I starting farming.

 

[shakerator]

Who do I trust ? Me!

 

[Honest john]

I can't believe any end user would alter the calibration of their equipment in order to gain a few claims. The risk and cost of getting caught are far to high.

But................. There are hundreds of suspicious claims. No smoke without fire and all that.

And if they get a power cut, or machine gets turned off ?
Even Lee can get a world record crop should he change the header width entered in his class.