Possible u Turn on government Environmental policy

[Goldilocks]

Horrified this morning to read reports in media that government supposedly considering trashing ELMs etc and returning to area based subsidy payments. Seems to be a misguided notion out there that Food production and care for the environment are mutually exclusive !.............. Just thinking about all the hard work put in by Janet Hughes et al and the possibility that it is all about to be shelved.
Time for the Regen Ag. community to jump up and down to counter this as i think the NFU are not going to be protesting much......

 

[roscoe erf]

threads all ready running on this and its a great idea

 

[spin cycle]

elms was only going to benefit large landowners and charities

also low uptake by farmers meant it wasn't going to deliver environment....so it's rumoured demise is good news all round

 

[roscoe erf]

elms was only going to benefit large landowners and charities

also low uptake by farmers meant it wasn't going to deliver environment....so it's rumoured demise is good news all round

just a shame they didn't listen could of saved a sh!t load of time and cash

 

[ploughman1963]

Horrified this morning to read reports in media that government supposedly considering trashing ELMs etc and returning to area based subsidy payments. Seems to be a misguided notion out there that Food production and care for the environment are mutually exclusive !.............. Just thinking about all the hard work put in by Janet Hughes et al and the possibility that it is all about to be shelved.
Time for the Regen Ag. community to jump up and down to counter this as i think the NFU are not going to be protesting much......

All the (much appreciated) hard work by @Janet Hughes Defra was by way of fact finding, looking for and listening to feedback - perhaps they did listen to what the majority of farmers thought of it?

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Horrified this morning to read reports in media that government supposedly considering trashing ELMs etc and returning to area based subsidy payments. Seems to be a misguided notion out there that Food production and care for the environment are mutually exclusive !.............. Just thinking about all the hard work put in by Janet Hughes et al and the possibility that it is all about to be shelved.
Time for the Regen Ag. community to jump up and down to counter this as i think the NFU are not going to be protesting much......

But after all their efforts, they have no idea what they mean by sustainable farming.
That is the problem.

As you say, they merely needed to incentivise production that is sensitive to the local environmental issues.

 

[Top Tip.]

But after all their efforts, they have no idea what they mean by sustainable farming.
That is the problem.

As you say, they merely needed to incentivise production that is sensitive to the local environmental issues.

Regenerative grazing is one of the buzz phrases with our government at the moment,can anyone actually define this term.

 

[steveR]

Horrified this morning to read reports in media that government supposedly considering trashing ELMs etc and returning to area based subsidy payments. Seems to be a misguided notion out there that Food production and care for the environment are mutually exclusive !.............. Just thinking about all the hard work put in by Janet Hughes et al and the possibility that it is all about to be shelved.
Time for the Regen Ag. community to jump up and down to counter this as i think the NFU are not going to be protesting much......

ELMS and more specifically, SFI was such a complete foul up, that as it was proposed, it had no appeal to Farmers.

A super light touch ELS/HLS revisited, would have had far more chance of succeeding in engaging Farmers (as opposed to the NT/WT and similiar bodies) and would have worked in maintaining production, enviro works AND profitablity.

However...... I am pretty certain that the new area based payments will have strings attached... Set aside anyone? New cross compliance regs? The Govt will want something in return for the money I am sure. Control being another...?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

But after all their efforts, they have no idea what they mean by sustainable farming.
That is the problem.

As you say, they merely needed to incentivise production that is sensitive to the local environmental issues.

Farming with inputs and outputs just isn't sustainable, that's why there's a problem with "selection criteria", those who are sustainable don't need tinkers

 

[copse]

Horrified this morning to read reports in media that government supposedly considering trashing ELMs etc and returning to area based subsidy payments. Seems to be a misguided notion out there that Food production and care for the environment are mutually exclusive !.............. Just thinking about all the hard work put in by Janet Hughes et al and the possibility that it is all about to be shelved.
Time for the Regen Ag. community to jump up and down to counter this as i think the NFU are not going to be protesting much......

The best thing that could happen really.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Farming with inputs and outputs just isn't sustainable, that's why there's a problem with "selection criteria", those who are sustainable don't need tinkers

I would think it would depend on what the inputs and outputs were.

Imagine the path to sustainable farming as a flow diagram, Defra have issued the thousands of potential starting points as options. They should start from the other end of the flow diagram but they can't because they don't know what it is.
So how could it succeed.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I would think it would depend on what the inputs and outputs were.

Imagine the path to sustainable farming as a flow diagram, Defra have issued the thousands of potential starting points as options. They should start from the other end of the flow diagram but they can't because they don't know what it is.
So how could it succeed.

Rainfall + sunshine, and some wind to sweep it around.

Nothing else can actually be counted as "sustainable" - if it wasn't in existence a couple of hundred years ago, then it's not a given it'll be available in 20.

It's hopefully going to be - but if we really look at modern farming, a lot of it's a fad.

Cheap energy and abundant wealth allow us to gloss over some things, eg labour is largely becoming a limiting factor.

Few people have started with a profit planned into their business model, or have even done holistic financial planning, and it shows in how they operate the business

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Rainfall + sunshine, and some wind to sweep it around.

Nothing else can actually be counted as "sustainable" - if it wasn't in existence a couple of hundred years ago, then it's not a given it'll be available in 20.

It's hopefully going to be - but if we really look at modern farming, a lot of it's a fad.

Cheap energy and abundant wealth allow us to gloss over some things, eg labour is largely becoming a limiting factor.

Few people have started with a profit planned into their business model, or have even done holistic financial planning, and it shows in how they operate the business

I agree but in reality, no other businesses or individuals will ever get anywhere near that sustainable so why should farmers live a life of subsistence.
Unless, of course, they are paid some kind of 'incentive' to take the pain for everyone else. . . . . . . .

I would imagine many commuters use more fuel travelling to and from work in a year than I do for personal and business use.

 

[Timbo]

I agree but in reality, no other businesses or individuals will ever get anywhere near that sustainable so why should farmers live a life of subsistence.
Unless, of course, they are paid some kind of 'incentive' to take the pain for everyone else. . . . . . . .

I would imagine many commuters use more fuel travelling to and from work in a year than I do for personal and business use.

100% !

 

[Goldilocks]

interesting replies and not what i expected........
To be more specific i suppose i am really against the common notion that you have to have one or the other ( food or environment ) rather than being specifically for the ELMS scheme ( Obviously not sure of its detail at this stage and it may well have been flawed ? )
Personally think that there actually should be no need for payments to specifically incentivise environmental stewardship but that it should be a fundamental part of every farm business. The big push should really be on education . ( With the proviso that farm businesses are profitable enough through sensible output prices and/or subsidies to enable sustainable, minimally environmentally damaging systems to be financially successful )

 

[puppet]

If sustainable means no inputs then is that not organic or very close to it? Or maybe regenerative whatever that means.
Even with the reduction in fertiliser use if we stopped it altogether then our forage for winter would be drastically reduced so our stocking would be too. Hardly a sustainable business model

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I agree but in reality, no other businesses or individuals will ever get anywhere near that sustainable so why should farmers live a life of subsistence.
Unless, of course, they are paid some kind of 'incentive' to take the pain for everyone else. . . . . . . .

I would imagine many commuters use more fuel travelling to and from work in a year than I do for personal and business use.

I burn more fuel some days in my fert spreader than we use in a year on 100 acres, and cover less than 100 acres in that day.

There's always "whataboutism" - great game to play, if you've got time?
It goes well with "why don't you" - "oh yes but"

We can be not responsible for anything!

There's also planning a profit into your business before you take the risks, didn't we all do that vital step at some point in learning holistic management?

I'm just not doing it for a 1% or 2% ROI, 10% and I'll get out of bed for a look.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

interesting replies and not what i expected........
To be more specific i suppose i am really against the common notion that you have to have one or the other ( food or environment ) rather than being specifically for the ELMS scheme ( Obviously not sure of its detail at this stage and it may well have been flawed ? )
Personally think that there actually should be no need for payments to specifically incentivise environmental stewardship but that it should be a fundamental part of every farm business. The big push should really be on education . ( With the proviso that farm businesses are profitable enough through sensible output prices and/or subsidies to enable sustainable, minimally environmentally damaging systems to be financially successful )

I'm for the environment.
We wouldn't have anything left, if we weren't.

And I really like growing food in it, I think this year I'll have more beans than I can give away

 

[curlietailz]

Horrified this morning to read reports in media that government supposedly considering trashing ELMs etc and returning to area based subsidy payments. Seems to be a misguided notion out there that Food production and care for the environment are mutually exclusive !.............. Just thinking about all the hard work put in by Janet Hughes et al and the possibility that it is all about to be shelved.
Time for the Regen Ag. community to jump up and down to counter this as i think the NFU are not going to be protesting much......

Likely such a small uptake from farmers it would be a disaster from the start

 

[Jackov Altraids]

interesting replies and not what i expected........
To be more specific i suppose i am really against the common notion that you have to have one or the other ( food or environment ) rather than being specifically for the ELMS scheme ( Obviously not sure of its detail at this stage and it may well have been flawed ? )
Personally think that there actually should be no need for payments to specifically incentivise environmental stewardship but that it should be a fundamental part of every farm business. The big push should really be on education . ( With the proviso that farm businesses are profitable enough through sensible output prices and/or subsidies to enable sustainable, minimally environmentally damaging systems to be financially successful )

Whom do you think should be educating who about what?