Albrecht versus conventional soil testing - my experiments

[Feldspar]

Just a quick note to say that we finally manged to get round to applying some of the Kieserite and potassium sulphate. The trials that I've done are:

Winter barley - Kieserite at 263kg/ha
Winter wheat - Kieserite at 263kg/ha
Winter wheat - Kieserite at 263kg/ha + 1st dose (out of 2) of K2SO4 at 150 kg/ha
Winter wheat - Kieserite at 100kg/ha
Winter beans - Kieserite at 263kg/ha
WOSR - Kieserite at 263kg/ha
WOSR - Kieserite at 263kg/ha + 1st dose (out of 2) of K2SO4 at 150 kg/ha

With the weather due to warm up and with a bit of rain forecast to wash the stuff in I hope we've got it on in time.

I hope to tissue test the test and control parts of some of these tests a couple of times during the growing season to see if there's any difference in the numbers.

I'll try and post one of our soil test results to give a more complete picture.

 

[Elmsted]

Any chance on even money that the greatest response will be in yeild terms the last one. WOSR - Kieserite at 263kg/ha + 1st dose (out of 2) of K2SO4 at 150 kg/ha

 

[Feldspar]

Why? Because of the sulphur, Mg or K?

I remember reading from your NRM link (http://www.nrm.uk.com/files/documen...f?phpMyAdmin=e74c3ed609ea3e3b1031074d884358e6) that the majority of rape is short of K when tissue tested and the majority of peas are short of Mg (is this likely to be the same for beans?).

I need to try and separate out the effect from the S and the effect from the Mg and K. Hopefully tissue testing might help?

 

[The Ruminant]

I have had some Albrecht tests taken by a well known UK soil consultancy company and also have sent some further samples directly to the Kinsey labs and am currently working with York (on BFF) who is providing consultancy advice based on the results of the second set of samples. By using two different Albrecht consultants I hoped to learn more by being able to compare the two sets of advice and question discrepancies between the two.

As well as comparing the UK and York's advice I wanted to compare both against standard soil tests. The results came back at the end of last year and I've spent many hours going through them and questioning the meaning of all of the test results.

How different are the UK and Kinsey Albrecht tests? Did you get a K-displacement test done too? Are the P & K figures broadly in line with the 'standard' soil indices?

 

[Elmsted]

 

[Elmsted]

I seem to remember that at conference suggested or insisted depth of sampling was 4" equals 10 cm give or take a bit. Even a tester graduated to that depth.

UK ADAS reply to analysis with traditional testing by UK labs.

 

[Feldspar]

How different are the UK and Kinsey Albrecht tests? Did you get a K-displacement test done too? Are the P & K figures broadly in line with the 'standard' soil indices?

The general message that came out of both tests was broadly similar. I did have the K displacement test done with my Kinsey samples. I mentioned the K displacement test with the UK company and they claimed to be familiar with it. However when the tests arrived it was clear that the proper K displacement test had not been conducted which was disappointing - the numbers had been fudged in a way that tries to mimic the proper K test. As has been discussed before it is important on soils with an excessive cation to have this test done properly as it can alter the picture substantially.

For K the normal soil tests all return values of 2-/2+ whereas in the Kinsey tests most fields had a 100-200 kg/ha deficiency (compared to Mg deficiencies of 6-800 kg/ha) with one or two fields having sufficient K.

 

[Feldspar]

Here is one of the soil samples. It's probably one of the worst fields we tested. Very high Ca:Mg ratio, high pH and low micronutrient availability. Note the change as a result of the K displacement test.

 

[Elmsted]

Feldspar from your pdf. I note kinsey recomends fairly high dose rates of secondary plant foods. Are you going to do those please. And do you have any financial or agronomic concerns at those levels. Given the elevated PH not suprising. Query is if one looks at things then one is potently turning the main root zone down towards a more acidic nature and hence the release will increase of plant foods. As per slide here.

Would it not be as effective and possibly easier to just reduce PH by N depot a la Cultan.

Then on PH 8 close to yours one has this data on ppm.

 

[Feldspar]

Elmsted, I do not intend to apply any of the micronutrients this year as recommended by Kinsey because of logistical constraints and because of the easier route you mention. If I were to apply the recommended doses I imagine the cost would be considerable. I may still try and apply some sodium to our barley to test for effects although as yet I have not sourced a suitable Na product - maybe a small bag of rock salt from the supermarket will be the largest test I can do if it is not too late to apply.

I accept though, because of the Law of the Minimum, that if my tests this show no significant effects from the MgSO4 and K2SO4 that it will not be possible to conclude that the Kinsey approach does not work because the limiting factor may well be one of the micronutrients.

The strategy I intend to implement next year is almost as you describe. I hope to try ammonium sulphate and hopefully will try to place it near to the seed to try and achieve some local acidification. Perhaps not as effective as Cultan but heading in that direction.

 

[Feldspar]

Here's a potentially quite exciting update. I have received my tissue analysis results from one of my trial rape fields. Attached to this post is the soil test for the field (without excessive cation displacement test - will not change the picture that much). Also attached are the tissue results. Guess which one is the trial and guess which is the control!

The difference is so marked that I did wonder if anything had gone wrong. Samples were taken within 15 minutes of each other and treated and sampled in the same way. The pattern in the worse result does make sense as well.

To check I've just taken two more tissue samples today from a wheat field that had Kieserite @ 263kg/ha and K2SO4 @ 150kg/ha.

 

[Fred]

What did you apply to the second sample?

 

[Clive]

Wow that is a big difference

Maybe that Kinsey bloke does know his stuff then !

 

[Feldspar]

What did you apply to the second sample?

263 kg/ha of Kieserite and 150 kg/ha of K2SO4 on the 7th of April. Rape was at green bud stage when sampled.

 

[Feldspar]

Wow that is a big difference

Maybe that Kinsey bloke does know his stuff then !

I know! Seems almost too big a difference. We'll see if the same thing shows up in the wheat. Have got some winter barley, spring barley, spring beans and winter beans trials as well. Might not be permitted a budget to test them all!

 

[York]

maybe a BASE case

I know! Seems almost too big a difference. We'll see if the same thing shows up in the wheat. Have got some winter barley, spring barley, spring beans and winter beans trials as well. Might not be permitted a budget to test them all!

maybe a case for "BASE" sponsoring ;-)
York-Th.

 

[Andy Howard]

I think feldspar has just got himself a speaking slot at the next meeting! Any visual differences. Hope you are taking lots of photos.

 

[Feldspar]

I think feldspar has just got himself a speaking slot at the next meeting! Any visual differences. Hope you are taking lots of photos.

Need to invest in a smartphone first. Not sure if it's my imagination or not but the trial plot almost looked a wee bit more backwards than the control! Can't see any visual differences on any of the plots that aren't figments of my imagination to be honest. As I say I'm waiting on the other tissue tests to make myself truly believe. Tissue test is obviously one thing but wait to see if the differences convert into yield.

ETA: just to clarify, the handwritten numbers in the tissue analysis slides are what Prof Bergmann thinks is required and what York works to (if I understand correctly).

 

[Jim Bullock]

maybe a BASE case

maybe a case for "BASE" sponsoring ;-)
York-Th.

Certainly worth a visit from the BASE/Frederic Thomas roadshow next November..

 

[Feldspar]

Certainly worth a visit from the BASE/Frederic Thomas roadshow next November..

As I say not much to see visually.

I'll have to do some fertiliser placement trials and strip-till drill comparison trials this coming season between the new drill and the Claydon.