Albrecht versus conventional soil testing - my experiments

[Feldspar]

Field spar,

Maybe I'm asking the obvious but where are you with the albrecht idea now?

One question I always wonder about is phosphate, I was always under the impression that albrecht called for 1:1 p to k ratio?

Do people do this? I'd be very interested to see it if they do, I don't have enough in absolute terms to get lots available but what I'm seeing where I can get it up a bit is it has a good effect on disease pressure, I know York alluded to phosphate and take all being linked, maybe I could see that.

I haven't done much more with it this year to be honest. I have been tissue testing to try to get more of an idea of how the soil tests relate to what the tissue tests say. There does seem to be patterns, but I haven't taken enough of them (and haven't understood the limitations of tissue testing enough) in enough years to be very sure.

The problem is that I don't have a very good way of measuring the yield difference of any trials I do. Without a decent yield meter and software package and / or a weighbridge it is difficult to get good enough results to actually draw conclusions. I think the different tissue tests I did in the trial and control areas were useful and did show that kieserite applied by itself in the trials did not raise the Mg levels in the plants. Same with potassium sulphate.

The only main changes so far has been the use of more sulphur on the crops which showed up short in the tissue tests consistently. I tried some micro-nutrient seed dressings in spring barley - haven't combined it yet, but I couldn't find an effect up to now. Also, as you may have seen on the Mzuri + Claydon thread, messed around with placed fertiliser a bit to see what effect that had.

At the moment I need to focus on trying to get the basics of farming right, like rotation, establishment, timeliness and so on, which will give a much bigger effect to the bottom line. Then I'm going to go back to the finer aspects.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I haven't done much more with it this year to be honest. I have been tissue testing to try to get more of an idea of how the soil tests relate to what the tissue tests say. There does seem to be patterns, but I haven't taken enough of them (and haven't understood the limitations of tissue testing enough) in enough years to be very sure.

The problem is that I don't have a very good way of measuring the yield difference of any trials I do. Without a decent yield meter and software package and / or a weighbridge it is difficult to get good enough results to actually draw conclusions. I think the different tissue tests I did in the trial and control areas were useful and did show that kieserite applied by itself in the trials did not raise the Mg levels in the plants. Same with potassium sulphate.

The only main changes so far has been the use of more sulphur on the crops which showed up short in the tissue tests consistently. I tried some micro-nutrient seed dressings in spring barley - haven't combined it yet, but I couldn't find an effect up to now. Also, as you may have seen on the Mzuri + Claydon thread, messed around with placed fertiliser a bit to see what effect that had.

At the moment I need to focus on trying to get the basics of farming right, like rotation, establishment, timeliness and so on, which will give a much bigger effect to the bottom line. Then I'm going to go back to the finer aspects.

Good idea. Let someone else take the risks if the benefits are unproven (which in the case of Albrecht science it is largely unproven and unconvincing) and spend the money on stuff that you will get a bigger bang for the buck than getting ratios to match.

 

[tafka]

Good idea. Let someone else take the risks if the benefits are unproven (which in the case of Albrecht science it is largely unproven and unconvincing) and spend the money on stuff that you will get a bigger bang for the buck than getting ratios to match.

Will, have you ever read any of Albrecht's books? Prove he is wrong! If you look at Feldspar's soil samples, tell which other stuff is money better spent other than Mg and P. You don't need to get % right before benefits are visible. Banding AMS, MAP and MgSO will do the trick.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Will, have you ever read any of Albrecht's books? Prove he is wrong! If you look at Feldspar's soil samples, tell which other stuff is money better spent other than Mg and P. You don't need to get % right before benefits are visible. Banding AMS, MAP and MgSO will do the trick.

Yes I've read some articles and some stuff from the soil and health library. It's not a question of right or wrong more a case of is it necessary, or economical or consistent in relation to yield expectations. I think its better to concentrate on the low hanging fruit first. Banding AS or using MAP is not an exclusive Albrecht technology.


Prove he is wrong? I can't really do that but I can't still can't see much to get excited about in base cation ratio soil tests.

 

[Feldspar]

At the moment we always have a few hundred acres which have either really bad black-grass or have been sown in unsuitable conditions. Sometimes both things occur at once. These fields will often yield 2/3 to 1/2 our good fields. No other fertiliser or input can have that big an effect.

Last year we had terrible winter bean yields over 300 odd acres because they were put in in silly conditions. It's a matter of mindset change of the older generation. First though they have to think that you're not completely hopeless and spending £70/ha to see almost no results in a pretty niche area of agronomy is not a good start.

 

[Colin]

I may have mentioned this before but I have been using the albrecht system for the last three years on carrots, I don't use the whole programme, I don't use kieserite or SOP as these are too expensive but I do broadcast trace elements and use seaweed sprays. Yields appear a bit better but I will need to do it for a few more years to know if the trend continues. I have also picked possibly the worst field on the place that is going into oats in a few weeks time. Need some Cu, B and Zn. Also need a tonne an acre of lime, this field has been limed TWICE in the last 5 years using variable rate, average in the field is 5.9 so not too bad but it is showing that on this soil type, little and often with lime may be the best thing. It probably also means that I need to buy my own spreader as the local boys get in a hump if you are applying less than 2 and start wanting more money.
As for tissue testing the carrots get all their N,P,K,S,Na and trace elements in the seedbed, based on albrecht + gut feeling/experience, we will be testing every 3 weeks over the summeren ipad to see what is going on, so far the trace elements are fine but P and K are low! Now we have high P levels but low K levels so could this be because the carrots are forming now. So there are less nutrients in the leaves as they are building root? I am going to try a part with extra MOP to guage the result. I think tissue testing n the longer term will point you to where there are problems in the soil, possibly through locking up due to imbalances, and to point you in the direction of what you should do in the future. I say this because by the time you find a deficiency and then treat for it some damage has already been done.
Just my 2p.

 

[Feldspar]

I may have mentioned this before but I have been using the albrecht system for the last three years on carrots, I don't use the whole programme, I don't use kieserite or SOP as these are too expensive but I do broadcast trace elements and use seaweed sprays. Yields appear a bit better but I will need to do it for a few more years to know if the trend continues. I have also picked possibly the worst field on the place that is going into oats in a few weeks time. Need some Cu, B and Zn. Also need a tonne an acre of lime, this field has been limed TWICE in the last 5 years using variable rate, average in the field is 5.9 so not too bad but it is showing that on this soil type, little and often with lime may be the best thing. It probably also means that I need to buy my own spreader as the local boys get in a hump if you are applying less than 2 and start wanting more money.
As for tissue testing the carrots get all their N,P,K,S,Na and trace elements in the seedbed, based on albrecht + gut feeling/experience, we will be testing every 3 weeks over the summeren ipad to see what is going on, so far the trace elements are fine but P and K are low! Now we have high P levels but low K levels so could this be because the carrots are forming now. So there are less nutrients in the leaves as they are building root? I am going to try a part with extra MOP to guage the result. I think tissue testing n the longer term will point you to where there are problems in the soil, possibly through locking up due to imbalances, and to point you in the direction of what you should do in the future. I say this because by the time you find a deficiency and then treat for it some damage has already been done.
Just my 2p.

Interesting, in particular given you are only following part of the recommendations (cardinal sin btw!). Are you treating everything or do you have control plots?

On the point about changing levels according to the tissue tests, this is something I've seen. Cereals at GS 30 often look perfect, but come flag leaf timing the levels can be terrible. Have seen this also with K in rape. I'm still highly undecided whether the plants are actually short, or whether it is because the there are faults with the tissue testing method not being responsive to growth stage.

So far there are some elements which Albrectht says we should be short of which we sometimes are - magnesium being one, but not always. Zinc, boron and manganese also. However, it says we should be really short of copper and we never are according to the tissue tests. It also says we should be way short of K and P but this has only been the case some of the time; other times we have plenty.

 

[Colin]

I think ultimately yield/quality results will tell you if that tissue test level was the right one for that crop/year!
On the carrots everything gets the same treatment now, I did the full programme one year on part of a field but it cost £750/ha versus £250, that area did yield very well but the field ended up being split the same way as the treatments were done and thre was a bigger yielding variety in that part of the field, however that field has since been SOYL mapped and that area has MUCH lower K levels, whether that is due to greater off take or what I'm not sure.
I do part of the programme as an insurance, we have HUGE levels of Mg so adding more is pointless, would the kieserite actually result in more availability of Mg through the season? We also have a spray programme for the carrots and they get trace elements every spray through the season so they are always getting topped up, but carrots are a high margin crop and the extra chemicals are inconsequential, an extra tonne a ha pays for them.
On average our yields are increasing, but I would only be confident in this after a few more years as there are differences in soil type, rotation and weather patterns that could be influencing them more than the fert programme. BUT I would say at they are less variable between fields across the same soil types, IYSWIM?

 

[Colin]

York,
On the carrots, yes I need to do more work, I think I will see how far my approach takes me for another year and take it from there. As for the Mg I use mag lime so get it from there and also have lots of Mg in the soil, when does it become a problem, when does it become available, these are things that the answer seems to be "it depends".
On combinables my major limiting factor is moisture on most of the soils, there may be a field where say 30% of it would always have plenty of moisture, but the rest will be short during grain fill at some point in 7 years in 10, so i Would need to manage that. When I apply trace elements to the carrots I apply enough for 3 years so the following cereals benefit as well. I also have 50 tonnes/ha of straw incorporated after the carrots and use broiler litter over the whole farm, which over time will help buffer the trace elements, hopefully.
On the spoke wheel injector, as far as I know that is using just liquid AS, my soil already struggles to hold onto lime and I think I am maybe using a bit too much S and I need to lime little and often to keep on top of the fact that it is a light soil. So does injecting huge amounts of s not cause more acidification on lighter soils?

 

[Colin]

Now why is yorks post not showing now? I had an email alert about it.

 

[Clive]

Now why is yorks post not showing now? I had an email alert about it.

He has deleted it for whatever reason unknown

 

[York]

He has deleted it for whatever reason unknown

Yes, I deleted it.
Sometimes it's better to not take part in a discussion or at least sleep a night before responding.
York-Th.

 

[Colin]

Yes, I deleted it.
Sometimes it's better to not take part in a discussion or at least sleep a night before responding.
York-Th.

Maybe more people should think that as well!

 

[SilliamWhale]

I may have mentioned this before but I have been using the albrecht system for the last three years on carrots, I don't use the whole programme, I don't use kieserite or SOP as these are too expensive but I do broadcast trace elements and use seaweed sprays. Yields appear a bit better but I will need to do it for a few more years to know if the trend continues. I have also picked possibly the worst field on the place that is going into oats in a few weeks time. Need some Cu, B and Zn. Also need a tonne an acre of lime, this field has been limed TWICE in the last 5 years using variable rate, average in the field is 5.9 so not too bad but it is showing that on this soil type, little and often with lime may be the best thing. It probably also means that I need to buy my own spreader as the local boys get in a hump if you are applying less than 2 and start wanting more money.
As for tissue testing the carrots get all their N,P,K,S,Na and trace elements in the seedbed, based on albrecht + gut feeling/experience, we will be testing every 3 weeks over the summeren ipad to see what is going on, so far the trace elements are fine but P and K are low! Now we have high P levels but low K levels so could this be because the carrots are forming now. So there are less nutrients in the leaves as they are building root? I am going to try a part with extra MOP to guage the result. I think tissue testing n the longer term will point you to where there are problems in the soil, possibly through locking up due to imbalances, and to point you in the direction of what you should do in the future. I say this because by the time you find a deficiency and then treat for it some damage has already been done.
Just my 2p.

Did a normal soil test or tissue test not pick up any lower levels of Cu, Boron and Zinc?
Did a ph test not pick up the acidity? Are you basing the need to lime on the ca/mg test or a ph test or both?

I can't see it being economic to try to change K availability with anything liquid, can you?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Interesting, in particular given you are only following part of the recommendations (cardinal sin btw!). Are you treating everything or do you have control plots?

On the point about changing levels according to the tissue tests, this is something I've seen. Cereals at GS 30 often look perfect, but come flag leaf timing the levels can be terrible. Have seen this also with K in rape. I'm still highly undecided whether the plants are actually short, or whether it is because the there are faults with the tissue testing method not being responsive to growth stage.

So far there are some elements which Albrectht says we should be short of which we sometimes are - magnesium being one, but not always. Zinc, boron and manganese also. However, it says we should be really short of copper and we never are according to the tissue tests. It also says we should be way short of K and P but this has only been the case some of the time; other times we have plenty.

You have to remember how Mr Albrecht did his original tests and wonder if the extrapolation of his results are the most reliable way to make decisions. Everyone would agree that fertility is worth balancing if you can but my question is how is the decision on where the balance should be made? And how repeatable and economic is it?

His books are good what I've read of them and make some interesting comments but I think one has to remember the context of them rather than treating them as means to an end. The best yields probably come from plenty of muck and a good rotation (+sun)

 

[Colin]

Did a normal soil test or tissue test not pick up any lower levels of Cu, Boron and Zinc?
Did a ph test not pick up the acidity? Are you basing the need to lime on the ca/mg test or a ph test or both?

I can't see it being economic to try to change K availability with anything liquid, can you?

To answer those,
If soil test shows up low levels I correct those, but the tissue tests are to check if the plant is taking it up or running low of stuff.
The field that seems to be the worst on the farm has had GPS lime twice in the last 5 years but was showing sings of acidity this spring, very light soil though. Lime need based on symptoms and soil testing.
I don't use liquids for K, just good old MOP.

 

[SilliamWhale]

To answer those,
If soil test shows up low levels I correct those, but the tissue tests are to check if the plant is taking it up or running low of stuff.
The field that seems to be the worst on the farm has had GPS lime twice in the last 5 years but was showing sings of acidity this spring, very light soil though. Lime need based on symptoms and soil testing.
I don't use liquids for K, just good old MOP.

Thankyou.

 

[York]

To answer those,
If soil test shows up low levels I correct those, but the tissue tests are to check if the plant is taking it up or running low of stuff.
The field that seems to be the worst on the farm has had GPS lime twice in the last 5 years but was showing sings of acidity this spring, very light soil though. Lime need based on symptoms and soil testing.
I don't use liquids for K, just good old MOP.

just out of interest, Colin,
as you work with the Albrecht approach. Did you test the used lime to match the Albrecht approach? This lime test is a little different than the once we are used to, at least on the continent, as they use a fines sieve test with a calculation of the availability of the Ca & Mg the next years.
I only can encourage everyone who is using the Albrecht approach to do this testing of the used limes. Otherwise it's a more guess approach of the reaction of the lime.
We have one local quarry where even each year the fines differs that much that the availability is different between the years. So one year you need to apply one 12/ha and the next year you have to apply 2.3 t/ha for the same reaction.

York-Th.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I've just a read a powerpoint presentation by Nander Robertson of Glenside.

http://www.farmingfutures.org.uk/presentation/bioscience-and-farming



Its an interesting mix of themes and some good diagrams and some "wise words" in a sort of Morgan Freeman style. A little short on hard data but I don't mind that as no till is short on hard data in the UK and I'm quite into that because it works ok for me. Still feels like nailing custard to the wall to me though. - I wanted to find out if Mr Robertson had any soil science qualifications but I can't find anything, am I being unreasonable in asking this? It wouldn't have to be a pre-requisite as obviously experience counts for a lot as well.

There is also the chance to buy some bagged lime, liquid seaweed, mineral licks and aerator. I was offered some Marinure earlier this year for £90 for 10l. I didn't buy it - should I have done? (my neighbour incidentally grows all his spuds without irrigation and insists that using seaweed every blight spray keeps them going very well without rain and it does seem to work for him)

 

[mikep]

Just breezed through this thread and I am afraid I think that a lot of this 'alternative' science is real crap, let me give my reason.

Conventional ag science gave us huge yield gains for the decades from 50's to 80's and then stopped. We got increases from fertiliser use, improved varieties that could use the fertiliser and crop protection products to keep the crops healthy and machinery to plant and nurture it better.
Now these year on year gains have stopped and people are looking for reasons and I believe turning to basically quack science.
You all know your farms, are any two fields identical? are any fields completely uniform? Thought not so there is a problem here, some of the differences are the mineral differences of the parent material, some are drainage some are a legacy of some event many years ago (hedge/pond removal etc).
If you are going into a micro nutrient hunt then your problem is with this lack of uniformity. The complex reaction of various nutrients is badly understood but we all know that it is not simple as a oversupply of one can lead to lock up of another. If you test for X and it appears defficient you may apply X to the soil but perhaps those areas not defficient now lock up Y you are no netter off. This is very simple but throw in other factors such as pH, soil water, temperature and past treatments etc. and I think you will disappear up your own fundament.
Sure there is a lot to learn but where I really differ from the new messias
is that with most micronutrients it is probably better to feed the plant not the soil and therefore there is no elemental 'interference' by banging on a relatively huge amount in one go.
I ask a question, if you think your soil is defficient in micronutients that are not within the realm of conventional thinking why not put them all on as you are bound to get a huge payback?
If there are any gains to be made they will probably be minimal and will be shown to be a blind alley. As with most things I think the answer is simple, we have got near to the end point of yields as they are always harvesting the sun. Good sun at the right time=good yields, Scottish yields are good because they have longer days in summer. You cannot increase the radiation level and this is one reason why you get the tail off in yield increase with high nitrogen levels. The world record wheats are grown with more nitrogen but a lot more light.