The urge to grow

[steveR]

what really concerns me, is the fact that european/world wars, have always begun by events in the balkans, for the last 100+ years, and its really volatile again now.

Being stirred by Russia.... again.

 

[Estate fencing.]

I once met an 80 year old person who was still playing 3 grounds of golf a week and I keep meeting 80+ year olds who are still living full and active lives. Your age is merely how many times you have been around the Sun.

I have an 83 year old that helps me, I keep him away from the stock because he isn’t keen on them and more risk but does all the tractor work and used to do the electric fencing with a Rappa barrow with steal wire (any done that know what a bitch of a job it is) until it got run over. If you don’t give him a job he will scrap the sheep yards by hand quicker than any 20 year old. I asked him what he was doing this weekend and he’s chopping fire wood for his daughter.

 

[crashbox]

Totally agree investing in variable costs is a risk. If ever there was a region for limiting your inputs to a dog and a stick its this one.

Investing in land carries a much lower risk because up until now at least the subsidy comes no matter what.

Over here, the high land prices and interest rates mean that subsidy doesn't even cover the interest. And now we don't even have the BPS!

 

[Vader]

Just another take on the grow/work thing.
By managing to take on a bit more land, it's meant I have gone from working every hr (as only me working) to been able to use contractors as got enough now to make it worth their while at a sensible price.
I dont think my profit will rise greatly due to now using contractors for some jobs, like spraying and fert applications, but I think it will rise a bit.
BUT the main plus for me is that I can now use contractors to give me more free time with the family, especially weekends, where before you can guarantee Saturday was first possible spray day of the week...

 

[livestock 1]

Anyone who asks that question has to be pretty naive

 

[Dan Powell]

Just another take on the grow/work thing.
By managing to take on a bit more land, it's meant I have gone from working every hr (as only me working) to been able to use contractors as got enough now to make it worth their while at a sensible price.
I dont think my profit will rise greatly due to now using contractors for some jobs, like spraying and fert applications, but I think it will rise a bit.
BUT the main plus for me is that I can now use contractors to give me more free time with the family, especially weekends, where before you can guarantee Saturday was first possible spray day of the week...

Yes that is important. Too many one man/woman bands in farming never get time off. Especially those with livestock. The only reason I really need an employee is to help with the stock, but it's also enormously helpful to have someone around for jobs you can't do alone safely, like clearing gutters or repairing a roof.

 

[ColinV6]

If you gave 100 farmers £1,000,000, I reckon at least 95 would spend at least a large proportion of it on more land/sheds/machinery/cows. I think it’s a completely unique industry in this regard. It’s a funny crossover between a job and a lifestyle. I think it’s addictive and it’s easy to lose sight of a real work/life balance. So people just end up doing more and more of it. That and the fact that margins are tightening and you think you need more acres/cows etc to make a decent amount of money. (Unless you’re doing something v intensive/diversifying).

A million in the bank? I’d sell the cows, so that’s maybe now £1.2 million, buy a Ferrari and have a nice easy life with the remaining million, rent some ground out, rent the cottages out.

Why anyone would slave to cows over that beggars belief?

 

[Dan Powell]

Anyone who asks that question has to be pretty naive

I am terribly naive.

 

[Dan Powell]

I am terribly naive.

Or maybe just cynical.

 

[livestock 1]

I’ve stated on here a number of times there’s 2 of us doing what 7 did
There’s your answer

 

[jondear]

The urge to grow .Hope you have great staff .As some are on the treadmill of always looking and trying to find them. When they no longer can do it themselves after expansion!

 

[Dan Powell]

I’ve stated on here a number of times there’s 2 of us doing what 7 did
There’s your answer

I don't disagree, but I don't really think it's quite that simple. I was looking at this more from a psychological angle rather than pure economics. It's a chicken and egg thing.

 

[nxy]

Over here, the high land prices and interest rates mean that subsidy doesn't even cover the interest. And now we don't even have the BPS!

Depends on the type of farming and area over here too. This is a mainly livestock area and subsidy easily covers land purchase or rental cost because subsidy is high and land values low. Its not the same in better arable areas.

 

[livestock 1]

I don't disagree, but I don't really think it's quite that simple. I was looking at this more from a psychological angle rather than pure economics. It's a chicken and egg thing.

What’s your take on it?
Mine is fairly simple you need about 6x the land or more to make the same as you could 60/80 years ago.

 

[Dan Powell]

What’s your take on it?
Mine is fairly simple you need about 6x the land or more to make the same as you could 60/80 years ago.

I guess the questions are as follows:

If this is progress, why doesn't efficiency lead to more time for leisure rather than a treadmill of constant expansion?

If 1 can do the work of 7, what are the other 6 doing that is helping the whole community? Are they employed in increasing societal wealth or are they doing bulls**t bureaucratic jobs? And when AI's comes properly online, what then?

What leads someone farming 1200 acres to think to themselves, "You know what, 1500 acres is sustainable. If I only had 1500 acres, then I would be happy"?

And these incredibly driven people who believe that they are creating wealth by controlling more and more of it themselves, are they really improving everyone's lives or just their own? And what about their families? Do they have time for their children?

The philosophy underlying this drive is one of individualism. A strange philosophy to be adopted by an inherently tribal/communal animal and one that I believe that will be our species' undoing in time.

Yet this philosophy of individualism is only as old as farming and really only properly reached its full expression with the advent of modern neoliberalism. Humans have been on Earth for anything up to 3 million years. Sapiens for 200 thousand or so. Farming for 10 thousand, fossil fuel use for 250 years and neoliberalism for 40 ish years.

This philosophy isn't the only way to live.

 

[Jsmith2211]

Warning: some elements of this post are a bit of a rant.

I think many if not all farmers assume that they need to grow their business. The mentality is that if you are not expanding, then you are standing still or even going backwards.

Where does this notion come from?

Take it to the logical extreme and you would end up with one bloody great business farming the whole country.

It's actually mania.... a kind of madness and an example of where the human race has gone completely doolally over the past two centuries. This is not the natural state of humanity. Yes there has always been competition between neighbours, but that has usually been for a resource that was needed by both parties. Now it just seems to be a dogmatic belief in "growth."

There's only one thing that grows continuously in nature. It's called a cancer and it eventually kills the host.

The endless competition with neighbours for an extra 200 acres, so we can drive down our marginal cost of production. All it does is slowly corrode our selling price and create one dimensional farm jobs lugging slurry all day or driving a cultivator all day instead of the quite enjoyable and varied life on a small farm doing all sorts of different things.

I know, I know, it's "progress." "You've got to get on."

Just remember people, you can't take it with you, and 100 years after you're dead no one will be able remember your achievements.

Enjoy your weekend people, you might drop dead tomorrow.

"In 100 years nobody will remember your achievements" - not so sure on that one.

 

[Devil's advocate]

"In 100 years nobody will remember your achievements" - not so sure on that one.

I thank my Grandad every day for taking on the tenency of 65 acre in 1929

 

[digger64]

"In 100 years nobody will remember your achievements" - not so sure on that one.

Are they achievements or just presented opportunities taken in a favourable/sustainable/ economic/market place/ environment at the time ?

 

[Dan Powell]

200 years then.

 

[livestock 1]

I guess the questions are as follows:

If this is progress, why doesn't efficiency lead to more time for leisure rather than a treadmill of constant expansion?

If 1 can do the work of 7, what are the other 6 doing that is helping the whole community? Are they employed in increasing societal wealth or are they doing bulls**t bureaucratic jobs? And when AI's comes properly online, what then?

What leads someone farming 1200 acres to think to themselves, "You know what, 1500 acres is sustainable. If I only had 1500 acres, then I would be happy"?

And these incredibly driven people who believe that they are creating wealth by controlling more and more of it themselves, are they really improving everyone's lives or just their own? And what about their families? Do they have time for their children?

The philosophy underlying this drive is one of individualism. A strange philosophy to be adopted by an inherently tribal/communal animal and one that I believe that will be our species' undoing in time.

Yet this philosophy of individualism is only as old as farming and really only properly reached its full expression with the advent of modern neoliberalism. Humans have been on Earth for anything up to 3 million years. Sapiens for 200 thousand or so. Farming for 10 thousand, fossil fuel use for 250 years and neoliberalism for 40 ish years.

This philosophy isn't the only way to live.

For me it is more about survival. For a business to survive and progress it needs to be able to stand on its own two feet. If your business won’t do that it’s less likely to progress. As you put in more effort and time then it’s less desirable to do so in something that’s stood still or in reverse compared to using your efforts in something that’s growing.