Compaction is it a myth???

[dontknowanything]

What do you mean by that?

People bash it because they are too determined to think it's not necessary.

It's EXACTLY the same as people who bash DD/conservation ag and say it won't work, doesn't make money etc etc

 

[Clive]

If I came on here and said "I've just visited a neighbour who's using cover crops and no till to grow 12t/ha wheat crops" then I bet everyone would be jumping up and down wetting their pants in vindicated excitement.

When I say the same about tillage & CTF, that's obviously not the reason; it's just one of those years, would have been the same with no till etc etc.

Open your minds people, I thought this was the section of the forum that held the progressive thinkers. Perhaps not.

this is very true and although I question heavily the necessity for CTF and how effective it really is or if indeed alternative solutions exist like lighter kit, better tyres or purposely randomised traffic to spread damage my mind is not closed to it and we do practice it partially as you know but only because I could without need to spend any money

I cant help feel there is a growing trendiness towards it though that is being encouraged by manufacturers of large machinery kit to mitigate and justify their very heavy machines and also as an opportunity to sell new kit all in matching sizes

there is not much progressive thinking in listening to those with agenda to sell you something, your comparison to zero-till is sound and as you point out a desire in everyone to justify their thinking and spending in only human nature

 

[dontknowanything]

I cant help feel there is a growing trendiness towards it though that is being encouraged by manufacturers of large machinery kit to mitigate and justify their very heavy machines and also as an opportunity to sell new kit all in matching sizes

Yes this is probably true, the manufacturers will be jumping on the bandwagon because they see the money.

BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT DOES NOT WORK!!!

 

[ajd132]

People bash it because they are too determined to think it's not necessary.

How can not running over ground be a bad thing? people seem to think its some ludicrously expensive system that you have to spend a million pounds in a year on! Granted the larger scale the farm the easier it is to make beneficial, theres not a great deal point doing it if you're running a 3m cultivator and a 6m press/drill for the hassle i would imagine, thoughts?

 

[dontknowanything]

How can not running over ground be a bad thing? people seem to think its some ludicrously expensive system that you have to spend a million pounds in a year on! Granted the larger scale the farm the easier it is to make beneficial, theres not a great deal point doing it if you're running a 3m cultivator and a 6m press/drill for the hassle i would imagine, thoughts?

No need to preach that to me.

We don't do CTF, and have no particular plans to get into it. But I don't see it as a big deal to do, and maybe it will be the way forwards.

 

[ajd132]

this is very true and although I question heavily the necessity for CTF and how effective it really is or if indeed alternative solutions exist like lighter kit, better tyres or purposely randomised traffic to spread damage my mind is not closed to it and we do practice it partially as you know but only because I could without need to spend any money

I cant help feel there is a growing trendiness towards it though that is being encouraged by manufacturers of large machinery kit to mitigate and justify their very heavy machines and also as an opportunity to sell new kit all in matching sizes

there is not much progressive thinking in listening to those with agenda to sell you something, your comparison to zero-till is sound and as you point out a desire in everyone to justify their thinking and spending in only human nature

One of the main points of it is to at least attempt to get away from big tillage trains and tractors to a no-till system with one large easy pulling drill, from what i can gather?

 

[Clive]

Yes this is probably true, the manufacturers will be jumping on the bandwagon because they see the money.

BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT DOES NOT WORK!!!

again true but lets see the proof / evidence just as you would say about ca / zero-till

zero-till is a simplification of methods for most and certainly a money saver even if it does or doesn't work where as CTF in most case will both cost significantly and add complexity

 

[ajd132]

if a large farmer is to go no-till with a big, 10-12m drill surely its the obvious thing to do.

 

[Clive]

One of the main points of it is to at least attempt to get away from big tillage trains and tractors to a no-till system with one large easy pulling drill, from what i can gather?

i don't know of many zero-tillers that do it or believe its a good idea ? I think most are mintil farmers a couple have notably bought 12m drills to make it all fit with the massive HP and of course weight also needed to pull such things

strikes me as a bit of a hamster wheel thats all, ....................

CTF = need wide widths which need heavy tractors to pull = "compaction" which = need for CTF

i see the advantage to fixed tramlines and harvest CTF if you already have RTK on farm and we do both those things

I am totally unconvinced for the need when zero-till drilling though with a 7.5t tractor on 6psi tyres

 

[SilliamWhale]

If I came on here and said "I've just visited a neighbour who's using cover crops and no till to grow 12t/ha wheat crops" then I bet everyone would be jumping up and down wetting their pants in vindicated excitement.

When I say the same about tillage & CTF, that's obviously not the reason; it's just one of those years, would have been the same with no till etc etc.

Open your minds people, I thought this was the section of the forum that held the progressive thinkers. Perhaps not.

I wouldn't have been. My pants would have remained dry. My pants also remained totally dry when in Clives drill test the 750 outperformed the other drills in what looked to be a pattern. Its just one of those things. You may hear of a man using a plough getting 13t/ha wheat somewhere this year, it doesn't negate or validate no till one way or the other.

I wouldn't say this is any more or less progressive a section, its just another aggregation of differing views.

CTF is fine as a tool if you can make it work for you but first of all you have to ask the questions as to whether the percieved "compaction" is a problem. For me I don't think it is, I can't prove that it isn't but I don't feel that it is. I don't think a tractor running over some stubble with a drill once a year compacts it to a yield sapping extent - in fact I'm still wondering why rolling is "good" but a tractor tyre "bad". @dontknowanything you've seen 100's of cattle in the same spot and stuff growing after it - did it need mechanical decompaction after? I know if I grow nothing in tramlines and use them for more than two years I start to get ruts and I don't want them.

That said if I was tilling the soil more and breaking up its structure deliberately then I think I would look a CTF in a different light not least because by destroying natural fissues and air pockets you will have had a bearing on the soils ability to hold traffic.

 

[SilliamWhale]

How can not running over ground be a bad thing? people seem to think its some ludicrously expensive system that you have to spend a million pounds in a year on! Granted the larger scale the farm the easier it is to make beneficial, theres not a great deal point doing it if you're running a 3m cultivator and a 6m press/drill for the hassle i would imagine, thoughts?

Why do people roll crops then?

 

[dontknowanything]

again true but lets see the proof / evidence just as you would say about ca / zero-till

zero-till is a simplification of methods for most and certainly a money saver even if it does or doesn't work where as CTF in most case will both cost significantly and add complexity

I'm NOT saying CTF is an excellent thing, just that it might be.

This may sound like a cop out, but this threads going round in circles now, can't be bothered to argue the same points again.

Got 11.01t/ha from a no tilled 750a field this year, very happy with it.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I'm NOT saying CTF is an excellent thing, just that it might be.

This may sound like a cop out, but this threads going round in circles now, can't be bothered to argue the same points again.

Got 11.01t/ha from a no tilled 750a field this year, very happy with it.

But what if you ploughed? You may have got 11.8t?

 

[dontknowanything]

But what if you ploughed? You may have got 11.8t?

Probably 15

 

[dontknowanything]

I wouldn't have been. My pants would have remained dry.

Only because you don't wear pants with your bathing attire

 

[SilliamWhale]

Only because you don't wear pants with your bathing attire

Is the opportunity for the mankini picture getting boring now?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Probably 15

But seriously (ish) everyone draw a line in the sand somewhere and yes something might make a difference, it might not as well. You might have made more yield ploughing, you may not have. You will never know. The probability doesn't look like you would have but who knows?

To me the probability that had I not done a one off traffic event on my field when drilling will lead to a yield penalty 300 days later doesn't seem terribly strong. But then again I'm not one of those people who says "the most important day in a crops life is the day its seeded" not least because plants don't work like that.

Sometimes compaction (or consolidation) is a positive force. But there is no universal truth all things can or can't work sometimes.

 

[dontknowanything]

Is the opportunity for the mankini picture getting boring now?

I'm on my phone, if I was on the laptop there would have been one

 

[ajd132]

Why do people roll crops then?

Rolling is very different to a tractor tyre, consolidation is good, compaction is bad.

 

[Clive]

Rolling is very different to a tractor tyre, consolidation is good, compaction is bad.

how does soil / plant differentiate between what method its being run over with ?

all that matters is the magnitude of the force not what's doing it