Compaction is it a myth???

[ajd132]

thats what i mean, a tractor tyre exerts a lot more pressure than a roll.

 

[Clive]

thats what i mean, a tractor tyre exerts a lot more pressure than a roll.

surely that depends upon the weight of tractor and size of tyre / track ?

can you quantify at what point perceived beneficial consolidation becomes perceived detrimental compaction ?

I maintain it has a lot more to do with availability of air in soil than any physical hard layers other than in extreme cases and I think this goes a long way towards helping us understand the importance of SOM beyond nutrition

 

[SilliamWhale]

Rolling is very different to a tractor tyre, consolidation is good, compaction is bad.

Says who?

P.s. I see Clive has made the point I was that thinking already.

 

[Andy Howard]

If I was in CTF, grew a cover crop which I then wanted to graze, would the animals have to stick to the tracks?

 

[dontknowanything]

Snor

 

[Knockie]

If I was in CTF, grew a cover crop which I then wanted to graze, would the animals have to stick to the tracks?

It seems they sometimes do
SD.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I maintain it has a lot more to do with availability of air in soil than any physical hard layers other than in extreme cases and I think this goes a long way towards helping us understand the importance of SOM beyond nutrition

We don't really know what compaction is exactly.

To some people its not being able to get the spade in the ground when its dry, to some its waterlogging, to some its a pan, to some its something that happens automoatically after a tractor has passed, to some its something than happens every August but presumably not in the previous June when the crop was growing etc.

I think your definition is a good one as it seems to have a stronger correlation or at least presence when there is more soil tillage or nothing growing than when there is less.

 

[Andy Howard]

Snor

Joking apart, would a CTF fanatic not get a bit squeamish looking at a load of Wagyu wandering across his field? Golden hoof or compaction?

 

[dontknowanything]

Joking apart, would a CTF fanatic not get a bit squeamish looking at a load of Wagyu wandering across his field? Golden hoof or compaction?

Funny you mention that, I had the conversation yesterday, and yes, it is a concern. I suggested either giraffes or a gantry rig that held the sheep over the fodder...

I've gone off cows grazing covers anyway, has to be sheep

 

[rob1]

We don't really know what compaction is exactly.

To some people its not being able to get the spade in the ground when its dry, to some its waterlogging, to some its a pan, to some its something that happens automoatically after a tractor has passed, to some its something than happens every August but presumably not in the previous June when the crop was growing etc.

I think your definition is a good one as it seems to have a stronger correlation or at least presence when there is more soil tillage or nothing growing than when there is less.

I think your right, we use the words compaction and consolidation but as I keep saying where does one become the other as really they are the same thing just different degrees of it. I cant help but think we are looking at it all wrong in some ways, when you see "weeds" growing in yards, walls etc whether its rape wheat or "real" weeds they dont look stunted and look at they way they push up tarmac, is it lack of air in "compacted" soil that is the real problem does this inhibit the soil life which feeds the crop by breaking down the nutrients, we have all seen maize crops where there are poor areas of growth despite the land being subsoiled . I think I will try using my slitter on a trial area to see if it makes a difference in areas where the dry weather hasnt cracked the ground

 

[blue power]

Is it not about moisture levels? If the ground is dry compaction levels will be less,if you roll when wet you will cause compaction.

 

[Badshot]

Funny you mention that, I had the conversation yesterday, and yes, it is a concern. I suggested either giraffes or a gantry rig that held the sheep over the fodder...

I've gone off cows grazing covers anyway, has to be sheep

Never heard of a sheep's foot roller then?

 

[mikep]

Rolling is very different to a tractor tyre, consolidation is good, compaction is bad.

Sorry my friend wrong. You are confusing damage from a tractor tyre which is mostly caused not by weight alone but by wheelspin shear from tractive force. This is self actioning as the greater the weight the greater the power needed to drag the machine along and when spin is happening more damage is done. Wheelspin happens all the time and you cannot see it except when it becomes obvious.

I started this thread as I noticed healthier plants this year showing up in old wheelings in crops that were suffering from late disease. This made me think why? We had been told that any compaction must be an evil and I should have subsoiled them out but here we see this is not always so. Why this should be a cause for no till v ctf I dont know except if compacton is not what we are told then there would be no justification for ctf.

I think with ctf that if anyone is single minded or disciplined enough to do this they are probably single minded enough or disciplined enough to be better farmer than me and will probably get good yields same for a totally dedicated no tiller that is really on the ball.

My problem with any system of soil engaging is I believe little is understood about soil mechanics. All soils are different but from a mechanical point of view some carry better that others but all carry better dry than wet.
I seriously think that todays machinery has got to the stage where it has reached the limit for a lot of soils and the vicious circle of more weight more power bigger wheels has run to the ground literally. Where no till is superior generally is that uncultivated ground has a much higher resistance to mechanical damage. It just seems perverse to rip up damage that may have been caused by your machinery just so you can do it again.

The real problem I have with modern farming is that there is a real push to bigger and this seems to mean better but that may not allways be the case. For example we are being told to 'fight compaction' with a 7 leg subsoiler pulled by 300+hp, surely if you just think clearly for a moment this is absolutely absurd or am I missing something? A 150 hp 6 tonne tractor pulling a 4 leg may be a lot better for the soil but a 7 leg is quicker, so why are you doing the job for speed? well just dont do it thats even quicker.

My view on compaction is that for me it is more myth than reality why? well I use an old lorry for grain carting tyres at 90psi and this should be a real killer but when it goes over the field ( usually the scenic route) it makes an impression about 3" deep but as you watch the soil rebounds and comes up to leave small indents about 1" deep after a few days these mostly go. In the wet it takes longer to rebound but before you reach the point of no return it is blindingly obvious that if you mess around any longer you will be going nowhere but walking home. That is on stubble so this is why I had a look at no till, it seemed to make sense. I know if I took the lorry onto tilled land the marks would be there a lot longer and when I investigated the soil in the stubble was a little firmer in the wheelings but quickly got back to normal (2-3wks) wheraes the tilled soil stayed like that all year and was still showing the wheelings the next year BUT the soil under the wheelings was normal texture not compacted. I have no idea how or why but it all seemed to say the soil will find a way to normalise seemingly no matter what but it can take time. So I found that I could make my soils 'compacted if I tilled them but not really if didnt may be just my land I dont know but that was sent me to mainly no till.

Good luck to any ctf fan or min till or no till fans we all have our own favourites and what works for you is great but this seems to have shown that for a section of farming, CTF fans, compaction is a real problem wether real or imagined and for the No Tillers its not a problem at all may be its just the land.

 

[frenchy from elsass]

Hi !
In East France, we did nt have frost in winter 2013. It was new for us especialy in corn fields because we always say "plough must work before thé frost to make sure that the Soil Will lose his compaction statue"

At the end of winter, it was sudently hot and very dry in march and May and we were less subsoiling at this momment With a horsch terrano. CLAY Soil were very hard..., never saw that!

Finaly, neighboor fields without cover plants, which were earlier worked ( automn), were much more Light for seeding than mine...but, between May and july, my corn come much more higher and Seems to be much more beautiful than my neightboor one (look at thé comparaison picture).. With thé return of Rain, living Soils work and change their aspect completly....especialy in CLAY Soil.

On an other picture you can see what was coming after this dry period...worms were on the surface after the rainfall

Today, my corn is one meter higher and much more green.

 

[ajd132]

Sorry my friend wrong. You are confusing damage from a tractor tyre which is mostly caused not by weight alone but by wheelspin shear from tractive force. This is self actioning as the greater the weight the greater the power needed to drag the machine along and when spin is happening more damage is done. Wheelspin happens all the time and you cannot see it except when it becomes obvious.

I started this thread as I noticed healthier plants this year showing up in old wheelings in crops that were suffering from late disease. This made me think why? We had been told that any compaction must be an evil and I should have subsoiled them out but here we see this is not always so. Why this should be a cause for no till v ctf I dont know except if compacton is not what we are told then there would be no justification for ctf.

I think with ctf that if anyone is single minded or disciplined enough to do this they are probably single minded enough or disciplined enough to be better farmer than me and will probably get good yields same for a totally dedicated no tiller that is really on the ball.

My problem with any system of soil engaging is I believe little is understood about soil mechanics. All soils are different but from a mechanical point of view some carry better that others but all carry better dry than wet.
I seriously think that todays machinery has got to the stage where it has reached the limit for a lot of soils and the vicious circle of more weight more power bigger wheels has run to the ground literally. Where no till is superior generally is that uncultivated ground has a much higher resistance to mechanical damage. It just seems perverse to rip up damage that may have been caused by your machinery just so you can do it again.

The real problem I have with modern farming is that there is a real push to bigger and this seems to mean better but that may not allways be the case. For example we are being told to 'fight compaction' with a 7 leg subsoiler pulled by 300+hp, surely if you just think clearly for a moment this is absolutely absurd or am I missing something? A 150 hp 6 tonne tractor pulling a 4 leg may be a lot better for the soil but a 7 leg is quicker, so why are you doing the job for speed? well just dont do it thats even quicker.

My view on compaction is that for me it is more myth than reality why? well I use an old lorry for grain carting tyres at 90psi and this should be a real killer but when it goes over the field ( usually the scenic route) it makes an impression about 3" deep but as you watch the soil rebounds and comes up to leave small indents about 1" deep after a few days these mostly go. In the wet it takes longer to rebound but before you reach the point of no return it is blindingly obvious that if you mess around any longer you will be going nowhere but walking home. That is on stubble so this is why I had a look at no till, it seemed to make sense. I know if I took the lorry onto tilled land the marks would be there a lot longer and when I investigated the soil in the stubble was a little firmer in the wheelings but quickly got back to normal (2-3wks) wheraes the tilled soil stayed like that all year and was still showing the wheelings the next year BUT the soil under the wheelings was normal texture not compacted. I have no idea how or why but it all seemed to say the soil will find a way to normalise seemingly no matter what but it can take time. So I found that I could make my soils 'compacted if I tilled them but not really if didnt may be just my land I dont know but that was sent me to mainly no till.

Good luck to any ctf fan or min till or no till fans we all have our own favourites and what works for you is great but this seems to have shown that for a section of farming, CTF fans, compaction is a real problem wether real or imagined and for the No Tillers its not a problem at all may be its just the land.

i suppose its hard to discuss compaction/ consolidation properly on here as well all have different soil types, conditions, machinery, acerage, customer demands etc. i definitely agree that no till land is much better at sorting itself out than tilled land. But try turning up on a contract farm with a 750A 2 months after harvest having hardly seen you, don't think customer would be too happy. Hopefully attitudes will gradually change. In 30 years time big machinery will be a thing of the past hopefully. Lots of small robotic tractors, geofenced in etc. With instead of a driver, a technician for each team of machines constantly monitoring and responding to any problems!

 

[mikep]

i suppose its hard to discuss compaction/ consolidation properly on here as well all have different soil types, conditions, machinery, acerage, customer demands etc. i definitely agree that no till land is much better at sorting itself out than tilled land. But try turning up on a contract farm with a 750A 2 months after harvest having hardly seen you, don't think customer would be too happy. Hopefully attitudes will gradually change. In 30 years time big machinery will be a thing of the past hopefully. Lots of small robotic tractors, geofenced in etc. With instead of a driver, a technician for each team of machines constantly monitoring and responding to any problems!

I'm glad I am not going to be around to see that, it sounds like some dreadful 50's American 'B' movie

 

[dontknowanything]

surely that depends upon the weight of tractor and size of tyre / track ?

can you quantify at what point perceived beneficial consolidation becomes perceived detrimental compaction ?

This goes both ways Clive; you often say you are not damaging soil with your 7.5t tractors - where's the line on tractor weight? Have you seen research, or is it because you want to use 724s and that's just how much they weigh?

 

[Clive]

This goes both ways Clive; you often say you are not damaging soil with your 7.5t tractors - where's the line on tractor weight? Have you seen research, or is it because you want to use 724s and that's just how much they weigh?

A 724 or similar size of other brand like a 6r etc is simply the lightest tractor I can get that's capable of the job pretty much at a cost that's reasonable in terms of overall ownership cost

My research was GCSE physics lessons where I learnt that p=f/a I want the lightest tractor I can get on the widest practical rubber along with versatility to do other tasks like haulage etc

 

[mikep]

A 724 or similar size of other brand like a 6r etc is simply the lightest tractor I can get that's capable of the job pretty much at a cost that's reasonable in terms of overall ownership cost

My research was GCSE physics lessons where I learnt that p=f/a I want the lightest tractor I can get on the widest practical rubber along with versatility to do other tasks like haulage etc

I dont disagree with you but there is a trade off between float and grip whereby if there is insufficient psi then wheels can spin as cleats cannot get a purchase/bite. Depends on land as your lighter soils will be more acommodating to treading lightly but if I try the machine just takes off the top cm.

 

[dontknowanything]

A 724 or similar size of other brand like a 6r etc is simply the lightest tractor I can get that's capable of the job pretty much at a cost that's reasonable in terms of overall ownership cost

My research was GCSE physics lessons where I learnt that p=f/a I want the lightest tractor I can get on the widest practical rubber along with versatility to do other tasks like haulage etc

Ok, but you're questioning the line between compaction and consolidation. I'm questioning the line between a 7t and a 10t tractor. Or a 15t. They may all be fine, indeed maybe heavier is better.