glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
no wonder index is zero if its been poo picked, total nonsense
The £ value of fym
- Thread starter Joe Boy
- Start date
What is the C:N ratio of your composted FYM? If you add paper waste to it you'll increase the C:N ratio, which puts you into a situation where the microbes that break down the carbon start to take plant available N out of the soil to make more microbes i.e. the N temporarily becomes incorporated into the microbial population of the soil and cannot be used by the crop.
Can you get any old/top straw bales that you could mix into the FYM, as the extra straw will have a similar effect of increasing the C:N ratio, without the hassle of finding paper waste. Virgin wood chips or shavings would also give you another source of carbon. Whatever you do don't use wood that has been treated, avoid it like the plague.
There used to be paper mills down in N.Kent but they closed down a couple of years ago.
Bossfarmer
Member
- Location
- between Perth and Inverness
Good research there @Feldspar
Are you still happy that higher SOM generally means better working soil & better yields? My highest yields still come from fields next to an old dairy unit that was packed up 15 years ago. The SOM levels are 8-12% there vs 4-6% elsewhere.
If you're feeling like doing some more digging, can you find us some more on the different types of soil organic matter like fresh (decaying root mass, straw) and much older (humates) please?
do you find you have to grow High N spring barley on these fields?
- Location
- Leicester/England
I often use a general 5 - 10% efficiency, but there are so many variables to be taken in to account. I think with FYM it's the sum of the parts that make it useful rather than any individual attributes.
- Location
- Leicester/England
Aylesford is closed but Kemsley Mill is still going and producing lots of crumble. FGS Organics are the ones to contact if you need any
As you say there are variables like form of N, application method, soil type, time of year, incorporation delay. These are all represented by the different N efficiency figures in RB209.
For example FYM has an N availability of 10% for most situations, but there are exceptions when sandy/shallow soils have it applied in autumn the N available is 5%. The other difference is if you apply fresh FYM in spring and incorporate within 24hrs then the availability figure rises to 15%. These are all %'s of the TOTAL N.
To answer the question, N use efficiency is already built into the availability percentage figures in RB209. RB209 is the easy tool to use compared to trawling through all the N efficiency research that has been done in the last 40 odd years. RB209 distills that mass of previous work into something we can all use.
What RB209 doesn't really tell you is how much Nitrogen will be mineralised in the longer term, 2 or 3 years after the application. This is where deep N soil sampling starts to make sense especially if you have been applying OM regularly for a number of years.
The application accuracy is also important. You wouldn't accept a fertiliser spreader that chucked out 20% more on one side than the other, but that is down to the person putting the stuff on, it is their responsibility to get it as good as they can.
Matt
Member
- Location
- herefordshire, uk
,
Jb Diego, nothing fancy at t1, 150kg of n. Planted mid October following maize, which had muck under it which followed grass.
Don't think it looks too bad considering it was only terrace disced and combi drilled as rain was on the way.
Oh and the sheep gave it a fair grazing too.
That's a good question. To be honest I hadn't taken samples of the grain harvested in those fields to test for grain N. It all goes in a 850t silo with the barley from elsewhere on the farm further away from the dairy so it blends away. The fertiliser programme is the same throughout. 140 kg/ha N targeting 6.5 to 7.5 t/ha yield of 1.8% N Propino - I just expect higher yields from those few fields.
I haven't got any malting barley in those higher OM soils this harvest but I'll certainly take some more detailed grain samples in the future. I only did the soil organic matter tests last year for interest as I'm about to change from min till to strip till and wanted a reference point.
Aylesford is closed but Kemsley Mill is still going and producing lots of crumble. FGS Organics are the ones to contact if you need any
Thanks. This may just be the lead I've been looking for.
Because it's too high in N. The stingy old livestock boys don't want to wast their straw.
If you are Luckly enough to be a horse however, each time you take a dump your loving owner will bed you down with fresh straw. The resulting material seems to be the right c:n ratio for composting unless the horse owner is completely mad and puts a whole bale in for each poo. Then it won't heat up or get going as there is not enough N. It's also very prone to drying out if you don't get much rain on it.
NeilT123
Member
- Location
- West Sussex
So the original question was “risky investment or no brainer?”
I am assuming that the analysis posted was prior to spreading, i.e. after composting and so that when spread at 12t/ha you are applying 58kg/ha Total N, 38kg/ha Total P2O5 and 78kg/ha Total K2O.
Assuming that all of the P & K will at some stage become available to the crop and is therefore a fertiliser replacement then on current TSP & MOP values that is worth about £50 per hectare but there are cheaper sources of P & K, e.g. Fibrophos, P-Grow & Sewage cake and this is based on all of the P&K in the FYM becoming available to the crop which may not happen.
With regard to putting a value on the N then it is only worth anything if you reduce your fertiliser N or it gives you a yield benefit. There has been chat on here about 10% availability so if it is 10% then I would suggest that you would not adjust fertiliser Nitrogen application for 6kg/ha of available N coming from the manure so there is no cost saving there so do you get a yield benefit?
There is no question that regular applications of OM will be beneficial to the soil and I did see some trial work from WRAP that showed that wheat yields did improve 0.5t/ha on fields treated with FYM but it was not clear what caused that yield improvement and it may be from the trace nutrients that manures apply and are not present in TSP and MOP but would be supplied by Fibrophos for example.
So “risky investment or no brainer?” I don’t think it is either. Your soils will benefit from regular applications of manure. That will help your crops but there is probably a net cost to you based on the FYM at £4 delivered in and whether you are happy to take that cost will depend on your philosophy, lowest possible cost of production or farming with a long term sustainable policy.
I am assuming that the analysis posted was prior to spreading, i.e. after composting and so that when spread at 12t/ha you are applying 58kg/ha Total N, 38kg/ha Total P2O5 and 78kg/ha Total K2O.
Assuming that all of the P & K will at some stage become available to the crop and is therefore a fertiliser replacement then on current TSP & MOP values that is worth about £50 per hectare but there are cheaper sources of P & K, e.g. Fibrophos, P-Grow & Sewage cake and this is based on all of the P&K in the FYM becoming available to the crop which may not happen.
With regard to putting a value on the N then it is only worth anything if you reduce your fertiliser N or it gives you a yield benefit. There has been chat on here about 10% availability so if it is 10% then I would suggest that you would not adjust fertiliser Nitrogen application for 6kg/ha of available N coming from the manure so there is no cost saving there so do you get a yield benefit?
There is no question that regular applications of OM will be beneficial to the soil and I did see some trial work from WRAP that showed that wheat yields did improve 0.5t/ha on fields treated with FYM but it was not clear what caused that yield improvement and it may be from the trace nutrients that manures apply and are not present in TSP and MOP but would be supplied by Fibrophos for example.
So “risky investment or no brainer?” I don’t think it is either. Your soils will benefit from regular applications of manure. That will help your crops but there is probably a net cost to you based on the FYM at £4 delivered in and whether you are happy to take that cost will depend on your philosophy, lowest possible cost of production or farming with a long term sustainable policy.
kneedeep
Member
- Location
- S W Lancashire
Can't argue with your thinking at all, just like to add one thing, A quote from our 'veg mans' agronomist, who looks after thousands of acres of field veg and roots.
Enthuses about our ( non mauled, regularly mucked ground)
"What muck gives you, you can't buy in a bag"
It's an expensive habit , especially short term rented ground.
Long term, it's like money in the bank.
(Very few 'long termists' left round here)
Next question, how much dung do you need to apply to make an improvement to soil or crop and at what frequency?
If you were to get 800t of fresh cattle dung each year and had, say 600 acres to put it on.
Do you aim to cover 60 acres a year over ten years?
Do you pick 300 acres and rotate that every five years?
What area could you reasonably cover with 800t dung to make a difference?
If you were to get 800t of fresh cattle dung each year and had, say 600 acres to put it on.
Do you aim to cover 60 acres a year over ten years?
Do you pick 300 acres and rotate that every five years?
What area could you reasonably cover with 800t dung to make a difference?
Fit it in your crop rotation. If your land is light enough to spread in spring then establish the crop straight after then that's when it will gain the most benefit of the N. Or pre osr when the crop can store much of it in the canopy over winter on heavy land. If rape is 1 in 4 then a dose 1 year in 4.
A full dose of 250kg/ha total N is best to keep spreading costs down plus if the material is lumpy you'll have the best spread at higher rates. It depends on the material and spreader.
Just my opinion.
A full dose of 250kg/ha total N is best to keep spreading costs down plus if the material is lumpy you'll have the best spread at higher rates. It depends on the material and spreader.
Just my opinion.
- Location
- the brecks norfolk
I think 10 ton acre every other year is a good quality to apply to see an improvement. But obviously you need the poo and and the time to make it work.
We apply a heavy dose for sugar beet then every other year after that for cereals. if we've got enough/extra we'll target what we think are poorer fields with annual applications.
I think that to see improvements you really need to be applying 10-15 tons acre atleast every 4 years.
We apply a heavy dose for sugar beet then every other year after that for cereals. if we've got enough/extra we'll target what we think are poorer fields with annual applications.
I think that to see improvements you really need to be applying 10-15 tons acre atleast every 4 years.
Having been collecting muck from various sources for a good few years I wonder if its best to turn it into an almost powder as per @Joe Boy or just try and get it to heat up to kill any weed seeds and let the bugs/worms do the work after spreading, if the intention is to feed the soil life isnt it better to give them the work to do . I have a few areas in fields where we used to tip muck from the dairy and even after 20years the soil is so much better and often goes flat, surely the N cant be still there after this time, we now tip in different places each year and when we ploughed the soil came up blue and awful, the crops never did that well yet now we DD they always are greener and seem to not suffer from compaction despite the loader going back and forwards when I turn the heap a couple of times
We do a straw for muck deal with about 65% of our straw, the remainder is kept for carrots.
If we apply 10-15t/ac, it will take at least twelve years to get round all the fields. Fine for nutritional benefits, but won't help beneficials in the soil or soil structure.
Next option is to pick our heavier/poorer land and rotate the dung round those fields every four or five years, aiming to improve fertility and soil structure. But then a third of the land will have straw removed every year and nothing returned.
Only 25% of our land is soft enough for carrots.
Third option is to forget about dung and just chop all the straw, then every field gets something every year.
Which options to choose?
kneedeep
Member
- Location
- S W Lancashire
Next door (ex veg man, so decent sandy loam) chops his straw every year,
His indices are all okay, however
He's got the worst crops by a country mile, there's nowt 'alive' in his continuos cereal soil, imagine incorporating sticks into the beach.
Everyone else mostly bale annually , with a green veg/roots rotation.
It all puts summat different back.
Funny how mucks only valued at £4,
I'd have as much as I can get at that.
There's plenty of spud men don't value it either, but will
"Do me a favour, and muck out our sheds if we like"
Hmm.
At £100 an acre though, I wouldn't want to be giving the field up for next year.