We own a field at the end of a lane which is not registered to anyone . The lane is on maps dating back to the 1800's leading to our field . The lane has not been used for many years we have started to clear the lane to regain access to our field upon doing this the neighbours have said I'm not allowed to do this can anyone help us ??
Access to our field
- Thread starter Dotty 16
- Start date
- Location
- South Wales UK
Land registry search .
If you had uniterrupted access for years they can not stop your access but clearing works maybe different.
Maybe tbey have claimed lane ?
How else have you been accessed it ???
If you had uniterrupted access for years they can not stop your access but clearing works maybe different.
Maybe tbey have claimed lane ?
How else have you been accessed it ???
buffalo_soldier
Member
- Location
- cumbria
Get the lane claimed and keep your head down
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buffalo_soldier
Member
- Location
- cumbria
Its a solicitor job i'm afraid.
Covenants, access , rights etc,etc.
Can be costly though.
Covenants, access , rights etc,etc.
Can be costly though.
Land can be either registered or unregistered. If the land is unregistered it does not mean that no one owns it.
Historically ownership of land was evidenced by a bundle of deeds dating back to the year dot. Every time the land changed hands, a new deed was created transferring it from A to B and this new deed was added to the bundle. One of the jobs of a conveyancing solicitor was to check all the deeds to ensure buyer was getting good title to the land. Your evidence of ownership is the bundle of deeds and not an entry on a registered. Hence the term 'un-registered' land.
I do not know about England, Wales or Scotland, but in Northern Ireland (and the Republic of Ireland) every time a piece of land whose ownership was evidenced by a bundle of deeds transferred ownership, there was a memorial issued by the Registry of Deeds. (I know this body has 'Registry' in its title, but the underlying land is still referred to as un-registered as it is evidenced by the bundle of deeds and not a land certificate or folio, as explained below). Just to confuse things and make it impossible to trace an owner via the Registry of Deeds (at least in NI), all memorials are filed by sellers name and date of sale! So you need to know the previous owners name to find the present owner. Nonsense!!
Then as time moved on, it was thought that it would be better if all land was registered at a central registry and Land Registry was formed. Here there is a single deed (called a land certificate or folio) for the land and it is this that is the formal and definitive statement of ownership. This gives rise to the term 'registered land'.
In the last few years there has been a move to force all land onto the Register. Therefore all land previously on deeds is being moved to the Land Registry every time there is a transfer of the land.
From what you have been told, the land is not registered i.e. it does not have a land certificate or folio. If owned by anyone the ownership will be evidenced by a bundle of deeds.
It is quite possible that the land is not owned, or the original owner is long dead and forgotten and no heir bothered to claim it. If that is the case you may be able to claim the land as some posters above have mentioned.
If you have a right of way over the land / lane, then be careful about what you are saying over when you last used it. In Northern Ireland, if a right of way is not exercised for a period of 12 years, then it can be lost.
I would get some professional advice.
@Danllan is the above summary correct for England & Wales?
Historically ownership of land was evidenced by a bundle of deeds dating back to the year dot. Every time the land changed hands, a new deed was created transferring it from A to B and this new deed was added to the bundle. One of the jobs of a conveyancing solicitor was to check all the deeds to ensure buyer was getting good title to the land. Your evidence of ownership is the bundle of deeds and not an entry on a registered. Hence the term 'un-registered' land.
I do not know about England, Wales or Scotland, but in Northern Ireland (and the Republic of Ireland) every time a piece of land whose ownership was evidenced by a bundle of deeds transferred ownership, there was a memorial issued by the Registry of Deeds. (I know this body has 'Registry' in its title, but the underlying land is still referred to as un-registered as it is evidenced by the bundle of deeds and not a land certificate or folio, as explained below). Just to confuse things and make it impossible to trace an owner via the Registry of Deeds (at least in NI), all memorials are filed by sellers name and date of sale! So you need to know the previous owners name to find the present owner. Nonsense!!
Then as time moved on, it was thought that it would be better if all land was registered at a central registry and Land Registry was formed. Here there is a single deed (called a land certificate or folio) for the land and it is this that is the formal and definitive statement of ownership. This gives rise to the term 'registered land'.
In the last few years there has been a move to force all land onto the Register. Therefore all land previously on deeds is being moved to the Land Registry every time there is a transfer of the land.
From what you have been told, the land is not registered i.e. it does not have a land certificate or folio. If owned by anyone the ownership will be evidenced by a bundle of deeds.
It is quite possible that the land is not owned, or the original owner is long dead and forgotten and no heir bothered to claim it. If that is the case you may be able to claim the land as some posters above have mentioned.
If you have a right of way over the land / lane, then be careful about what you are saying over when you last used it. In Northern Ireland, if a right of way is not exercised for a period of 12 years, then it can be lost.
I would get some professional advice.
@Danllan is the above summary correct for England & Wales?
We have spoken with the solicitor that have the deeds hopeful this will answer a few things for us
Anonymous...
Member
Just bought land and similar problem came up, though not with neighbours but our solicitor
We have 5 access points but none are on land register, we have got a sworn declaration from previous owner stating over 40 yrs access and have an indemnity policy
Cost us all in about £250 , get your solicitor to sort it
We have 5 access points but none are on land register, we have got a sworn declaration from previous owner stating over 40 yrs access and have an indemnity policy
Cost us all in about £250 , get your solicitor to sort it
beefandsleep
Member
- Location
- Staffordshire
It is likely the neighbour has plans to claim the land but he has no chance unless he can prove exclusive use. Carry on and clear the path, if no one owns it who is going to stop you. Don't enter into conversation about it with him again, just register a right of access with the land registry to secure your rights, it will be added to your deeds. You will have to sign a declaration that you have used the lane on a regular basis. Just clear it, put a nice shiny new gate in with a padlock on it and make sure you use it every now and again.
beefandsleep
Member
- Location
- Staffordshire
Btw, this happened to me and the neighbor was in the process of claiming an access to my field which was not regularly used. His mistake was to build a wall across it before he had ownership, if he had waited another 6 months I would have lost the use of it. When caught out he was apologetic and I ripped the wall out with my digger.
- Location
- South Wales UK
Why fuss now ?
What's history etc.etc.
You don't say if you been getting access solely this or another way ?
What's history etc.etc.
You don't say if you been getting access solely this or another way ?
beefandsleep
Member
- Location
- Staffordshire
It would be very short sighted to let any rights of access lapse even if they are never used. They may be needed in the future or have a use to subsequent owners.
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
First question is where are you @Dotty 16 ?
@alex04w as usual I'll start with a disclaimer, I've never practised in land law and only know what's been relevant to me in the Anglo-Welsh jurisdiction. That written...
My first action and response to the neighbour saying the route can't be used would be to ask 'Why not, and what evidence do you have to support that claim?'
If you / previous owners have had unrestricted and unchallenged access to the land and can prove this, it would be very hard - verging in the impossible - for that access to be taken away now. Further, it is implicit in having a right (and therefore a route) of access that it can be used, so clearing it to a reasonable extent to allow its use is also something which could not be challenged if the access is proven as a right.
Do you really want the access route itself, or part of it? If you have a right over it that should be enough for the time being, I'd be reluctant to try to campaign on too many fronts at the same time. Look to purchase when this first matter is settled.
So, first of all find out what you neighbour knows, or believes. Take that plus the rest of your case to a decent solicitor, a land specialist not a general practitioner and see where you really stand - not where somebody else thinks you do.
@alex04w as usual I'll start with a disclaimer, I've never practised in land law and only know what's been relevant to me in the Anglo-Welsh jurisdiction. That written...
My first action and response to the neighbour saying the route can't be used would be to ask 'Why not, and what evidence do you have to support that claim?'
If you / previous owners have had unrestricted and unchallenged access to the land and can prove this, it would be very hard - verging in the impossible - for that access to be taken away now. Further, it is implicit in having a right (and therefore a route) of access that it can be used, so clearing it to a reasonable extent to allow its use is also something which could not be challenged if the access is proven as a right.
Do you really want the access route itself, or part of it? If you have a right over it that should be enough for the time being, I'd be reluctant to try to campaign on too many fronts at the same time. Look to purchase when this first matter is settled.
So, first of all find out what you neighbour knows, or believes. Take that plus the rest of your case to a decent solicitor, a land specialist not a general practitioner and see where you really stand - not where somebody else thinks you do.
I'm in Somerset . We have said this to them and they have not provided us with any evidence. The land is behind 3 properties which was part of the original farm belonging to my family so I know where all the boundaries are for these. I want to access my field as I might sell the land but we need the original access to it .
Nearly
Member
- Location
- North of York
Go and get the deeds, take them straight to a copy shop and makeat least 2 copies.
Read through everything three times at home. Better off spending your time reading the deeds than an office junior at £120/hour.
They are actually very interesting documents.
Everyone should have a copy of them at home and their land registry documents. Nosey people would spend £6 and get a copy of the neighbour's LR documents too.
To claim a piece of land which you have insufficient records you need to goggle 'claim by adverse posession'
If the track is that overgrown then the neighbour will not be able to claim they've used it. Neither may you?
Can of worms.
Last edited:
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
Go and get the deeds, take them straight to a copy shop and makeat least 2 copies.
Read through everything three times at home. Better off spending your time reading the deeds than an office junior at £120/hour.
They are actually very interesting documents.
Everyone should have a copy of them at home and their land registry documents. Nosey people would spend £6 and get a copy of the neighbour's LR documents too.
To claim a piece of land which you have insufficient records you need to goggle 'claim by adverse posession'
If the track is that overgrown then the neighbour will not be able to claim they've used it. Neither may you?
Can of worms.
Certainly you will be better off spending time reading doc's than paying some others to do so; however, unless there is something glaringly obvious - always possible - you wouldn't be paying a solicitor to peruse your deeds, rather you'd be paying him for his expert knowledge of what to do in your favour on the basis of not having found anything obvious in the deeds.
With regards to 'adverse possession', if you have old claims this could be relevant; but unless the track was pretty much constantly in use or, at least, fenced and enclosed by you, AP can be hard to prove. In any case you'd have to be able to demonstrate at least ten years of you being sole user and all of that time would have to be before 2003, anything later doesn't count.