Calves over Bulls lifetime

Wishful Thinker · Apr 21, 2017

Sorry maybe done before, can't find any.

What would you class as acceptable? We need a new bull and was just looking over figures our current bull only produced 108 calves. The last bull was worse. 9 week calving period and both have only lasted 3 seasons. I'm selling them before they are completely done so getting bit more than fat price but what am I doing wrong?

GTB · Apr 21, 2017

Bulls and rams have become pretty poor imho. I have bought seven bulls in the last four years. One died 12 months later. Two were infertile/subfertile. One tested positive for johnes 12 months later. I'm hoping the current lot are better.

Henarar · Apr 21, 2017

I spose it depends on how many cows you put him to and what calving pattern you run as to how many cows he should serve

Happy · Apr 21, 2017

Last few here around the 300 mark.
Spring and Autumn calving herds though so 50 cows a year served each.
All you can do as regards johnes etc. Is try and buy from a low risk herd, luck has a lot to do with the rest.

Princess Pooper · Apr 21, 2017

Our current bull Aberdeen Angus 240-250 calves (30-45 a year) so far. Cost us £1500. Includes a few months every year on concrete in the cubicle house (he does lie in a Newton Rigg cubicle, bless him with his bum sticking out rather!) Will be sad when he goes as he's a real gentleman and no bother at all, good quality calves too, sometimes top the market. Unfortunately his breeder has retired else would definitely return when we need a replacement.

Previously bought an AA for £1200 worked him for 3 years but too many calving problems, sold him for £1300, but would have cost us more than that in calf losses and effect on cows.

M-J-G · Apr 21, 2017

It's all dependant on the system, 200 calves per year is easily possible if you're happy with them calving 4 or 5 a week AYR.

On a regimented calving 30-40 calves born per 9 week bulling period would be acceptable, the average working life of a bull is less than 4 years.

Cue the reports of teenaged bulls

Pan mixer · Apr 21, 2017

My 4 year old Angus has done 30 cows a year in 3 week calving period (except one late each time), getting him some help next season though.

I leave him out with the girls for 4 - 5 months as he is less bother out with them.

CharcoalWally · Apr 21, 2017

No easy answers to this point I'm afraid.

Bulls need to stay healthy , they need to stay lucky , they need to stay sound , they need to ideally maintain a fairly level plane of fertility , they need to not injure themselves while out at work with the cows , or waste time and energy fighting with other bulls , and they've got to keep their libido up over a protracted length of time - bulls need to satisfy all these requirements to leave a lot of calves over a long working life , and , to be frank , luck plays a major part.

This is before we even discuss if the bull has been fed and reared in a way that allows him to be fit for a long worklife , or whether he's been so hard fed to attract customers that his feet and fertility and libido are compromised.

My two bulls from the late 90's both left 317 calves each , but their successor was steaming along nicely up to 150 calves , and then his libido just seemed to drop right off.

Current homebred sire after two full seasons calving is around 90 calves so far.

I remember speaking to a guy a few years back. He'd bought a bull in the Bull Sales that I'd much admired. He told me he persevered with the bull for two years. He'd get turned out with the cows , would go lame , get brought back in rested and patched up again , turned out again , go lame again , and so on. After two years he called it quits and put the bull away. He reckoned the bull left 7 or 8 calves. Doesn't make 108 look so bad , does it?

Wishful Thinker · Apr 21, 2017

CharcoalWally said:
No easy answers to this point I'm afraid.

Bulls need to stay healthy , they need to stay lucky , they need to stay sound , they need to ideally maintain a fairly level plane of fertility , they need to not injure themselves while out at work with the cows , or waste time and energy fighting with other bulls , and they've got to keep their libido up over a protracted length of time - bulls need to satisfy all these requirements to leave a lot of calves over a long working life , and , to be frank , luck plays a major part.

This is before we even discuss if the bull has been fed and reared in a way that allows him to be fit for a long worklife , or whether he's been so hard fed to attract customers that his feet and fertility and libido are compromised.

My two bulls from the late 90's both left 317 calves each , but their successor was steaming along nicely up to 150 calves , and then his libido just seemed to drop right off.

Current homebred sire after two full seasons calving is around 90 calves so far.

I remember speaking to a guy a few years back. He'd bought a bull in the Bull Sales that I'd much admired. He told me he persevered with the bull for two years. He'd get turned out with the cows , would go lame , get brought back in rested and patched up again , turned out again , go lame again , and so on. After two years he called it quits and put the bull away. He reckoned the bull left 7 or 8 calves. Doesn't make 108 look so bad , does it?

No it doesn't.
I'm in a situation where with my last 2 bulls are probably costing me close to £30/calf. I have started ai this year with mixed results, don't really have a full grasp on costs/calf with it yet but it will probably be on par. A change of system is maybe the way to go, hopefully get a better calf but more work involved.
I have found that when bulls come here and thrown in with 30-40 cows they melt away to nothing, under stress and then have feet or other health issues but really it is feet where we have the most bother. Trimming twice a year and still doesn't seem to be enough. I want to buy a young bull with potential that hasn't been pushed but going around breeders they don't want to sell the younger bulls so it looks like I will have to go for another steamed up bull if I go down that route.

Lovegoodstock · Apr 22, 2017

Been covered in several threads before of buying bulls from sales and sadly is a catch 22 situation that if you have a potential market topper you have to feed to show better than rivals. Then more than change of feed I find, which I know is young bull syndrome, but the high energy diet creates young bulls that have to serve a cow 4/5/6 times rather than an older or naturally fed bull once or twice. Can mean that whilst you think a young bull has struggled to cover 20 cows, as we had 2 years ago, it almost has served the equivalent of 100 odd, took this bull 2 years to come back to proper condition, and was pulled out before he went to look to bad. Also hows your conception rate? Im AYR calving which gives bulls a chance of swapping and a break, but a 9 week period, which is fine obviously, but if most are turning once /twice, without stating the obvious it means a comfortable bunch of 40 cows can mean 80 or 100

wellingtonfarmer · Apr 22, 2017

I'm having massive issues with bulls at the moment. Like @GTB, the turnover of bulls at my place is embarrassing. Had 4 bulls in last 2 years and only run 3 bulls.
I have 2 new this year, last year one was sub fertile and lost one to Tb! The only older bull I have is 4 and he didn't work much last year because he had sand cracks. He is sound now but I'm worried he will go lame again

GTB · Apr 22, 2017

Best advice I could give is to buy a bull six months before you need him so that he can mature and adapt to his new surroundings at his leisure. Especially important if you want him to work on concrete over the winter.

Henarar · Apr 22, 2017

our Hereford bull we had when we had or dairy herd done a couple years on 35 dairy cows then a year or two on about 25 suck cows then we had loads of his heifers to put to bull so we sold him to a Holstein dairy farmer we know that must have had 150 but he would have been sweeping but for some reason we never gave him the passport, he had him for years I forget how long but it must have been nigh on ten before he asked for the passport so he could send him on, no idea how many calves he had but he lasted a fare few years
The one we bought to replace him done two years and done his back in, so maybe 50/60 calves
the blues seem to do 4 or 5 years so maybe 100 or so but we run two all the time now so they don't get the opportunity to do more

Dkb · Apr 22, 2017

Next door neighbours bull was. Bought 11 years ago and has put 40 cows in calf every year. He cost 2500 at 12 months old.

GTB · Apr 22, 2017

Also with keeping heifers a lot of good bulls get moved on after 2/3 years because of their daughters coming through.

Henarar · Apr 22, 2017

Wishful Thinker said:
No it doesn't.
I'm in a situation where with my last 2 bulls are probably costing me close to £30/calf. I have started ai this year with mixed results, don't really have a full grasp on costs/calf with it yet but it will probably be on par. A change of system is maybe the way to go, hopefully get a better calf but more work involved.
I have found that when bulls come here and thrown in with 30-40 cows they melt away to nothing, under stress and then have feet or other health issues but really it is feet where we have the most bother. Trimming twice a year and still doesn't seem to be enough. I want to buy a young bull with potential that hasn't been pushed but going around breeders they don't want to sell the younger bulls so it looks like I will have to go for another steamed up bull if I go down that route.

what sort of money are these bulls to only last 30-40 cows before giving trouble ?
there must be a breeder about near you that does the job properly, what breed ?
@Wishful Thinker

Wishful Thinker · Apr 22, 2017

Henarar said:
what sort of money are these bulls to only last 30-40 cows before giving trouble ?
there must be a breeder about near you that does the job properly, what breed ?
@Wishful Thinker

These are blonde bulls and in around the £2500.
I like the blonde as I work away I need something that will spit out and still give calves with a bit of confirmation. However I think I'm going to buy a limo this time. More breeders and larger herds, more choice hopefully pick up one with good locomotion.
Previously had blues which I loved and we did very well with but too many sections.

Henarar · Apr 22, 2017

Wishful Thinker said:
These are blonde bulls and in around the £2500.
I like the blonde as I work away I need something that will spit out and still give calves with a bit of confirmation. However I think I'm going to buy a limo this time. More breeders and larger herds, more choice hopefully pick up one with good locomotion.
Previously had blues which I loved and we did very well with but too many sections.

you want to be careful what limo you buy, they are not all fall out on the floor calvers these days but get the right one and you will be fine

the same as blues really

Archie · Apr 22, 2017

GTB said:
Also with keeping heifers a lot of good bulls get moved on after 2/3 years because of their daughters coming through.

Got that dilemma at the moment. Hard moving a good bull on with no fertility or lameness issues that's leaving good calves when you've had other good bulls not last the course.

Our recent Charolais bulls have not lasted the course due to fertility issues yet Simmental ones we breed replacements from want to go on forever.
Gone Simmental on everything other than heifers now and using oldest bull on older cows to keep him away from any daughters in the herd but can see things getting a bit tricky in a year or two but loath to get rid of him when he is working well.

Henarar · Apr 22, 2017

GTB said:
Bulls and rams have become pretty poor imho. I have bought seven bulls in the last four years. One died 12 months later. Two were infertile/subfertile. One tested positive for johnes 12 months later. I'm hoping the current lot are better.

Hate to say this Dai but the first bull we sold that we had offered to you is still going strong, calves look good at market he has been out all winter to,
someone said you couldn't do that with a blue

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