Why is fertilizer in bulk a no,no in Europe compared to North America?

Brisel said:

I've never quite understood why anhydrous ammonia is used. Is is easier to get a bigger dose of N safely into the soil than with normal UAN based liquid? I see the N concentration is much higher so I guess that's why you bother with the extra hassle but less bulk.

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higher % N
cheapest form of N
actually, it is far less hassle than any other form of N, which is why I use it
the nurse tanks are owned & delivered by Incitec, just a matter of communication to keep them coming, once youre finished they take them back & you receive a credit for any you didn't use. No storage issues, no wastage. I just own the smaller applicator tank & the associated metering / distribution equipment, pretty easy to adapt it to most tillage equipment. When I used to use a tyne planter for zero till, I'd actually apply anhydrous at the same time down a delta wing, about 50mm off from the seed row
Anhydrous does need to be injected into moist soil & sealed off, as you would see from my above pic. The main issue is the safety one - it is deadly sh!t & will either suffocate or burn you if you let your guard down. But, you learn to deal with that & treat it with respect . . .hence the comment about the meth cooks in the US. @Dead Rabbits can tell you all about that

UAN 32% is just too much bulk & not that cost effective for our distances / freight & field sizes

Brisel said:

I've never quite understood why anhydrous ammonia is used. Is is easier to get a bigger dose of N safely into the soil than with normal UAN based liquid? I see the N concentration is much higher so I guess that's why you bother with the extra hassle but less bulk.

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Price was always the reason I heard for using it. I remain skeptical of how much actually stays where you put it for the plant. And it's almost a fumigant for soil life. It's horrible stuff to be around, you aren't missing anything.

Bulk works for large volumes...like North America/Australia. Tip and spread same day solves all problems - especially if applied by contractor like lime.

UK farmers often handling smaller volumes at peak times where transport could not cope with delivering it in time. Storage is therefore a must for many. Most have barns suitable for bags, but very few have a bulk store able to take bulk (i.e. spare concrete panel grainstore) as flat floor storage like this relatively new in UK terms and thus most would be in use for grain.

actually, on the storage / humidity thing . . .

ive always had far more problems with fert going hard in 1 tonne bags than anything else, especially if sitting for a while. Ive had to push them around with a loader and drop them to try & break them up & have still had to shove a piece of pipe or rod up them to break the clumps up at times

Farmer Roy said:

actually, on the storage / humidity thing . . .

ive always had far more problems with fert going hard in 1 tonne bags than anything else, especially if sitting for a while. Ive had to push them around with a loader and drop them to try & break them up & have still had to shove a piece of pipe or rod up them to break the clumps up at times

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I would actually be inclined to agree. Any bags kept over a year go hard and need banging. Often those delivered in autumn and used in spring can have same problem....all 600kg urea.

Easier to break them up in bulk I would think.

Hassle and shed space.

I suppose I balance the bagged / liquid N with the bulk P&K made of old ash etc which has a much larger saving. If I had a snazzier spreader I might get some bulk fert, but currently I can only fit 1.2t of urea in my little old spreader.

Mine is bulk every year for the last 15ish anyway, collected as required, the target is to have it spread before invoice is printed.

Traffic dodger said:

Would think bulk storage in sheds would cost to money for most farms. All the environment precautions of stopping it running in to drains etc, health and safety etc. Probably cheaper in smaller amounts than doing all that.

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Nothing needed, an empty grain store is fine, the stores at the docks with a whole ship load in are just a plain normal very big shed used for anything.

when buying in bulk (loose) do you have to buy when its available or can you price well in front for say March delivery?

I am sure I remember anhydrous ammonia tanks when I were a lad. Perhaps too tempting to the immature mind with a .22?

Bogweevil said:

I am sure I remember anhydrous ammonia tanks when I were a lad. Perhaps too tempting to the immature mind with a .22?

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it is a very dangerous product stored at pressure. Tanks normally run around 100 psi, regularly seen them at 150 on hot days.

but, they are very thick steel, I doubt a .308 would have any affect, let alone a .22
the tanks themselves are subject to external examinations every 2 years & an internal every 5
I think the build date on mine is in the 90's ( bought it S/H )

There you go, bulk AS.

back in the 70s I spent many weeks injecting ammonia in grass fields in the spring. one dose lasted for months. very true its dangerous stuff. get any of the gas on bare skin and you would get a burn like a flame. all the gas came from calor , this carried on for several years until something happened with calor, I think I recal it was taken over by ici and the company stopped supplying it because of the conflict with solid fert

yellowfrog said:

back in the 70s I spent many weeks injecting ammonia in grass fields in the spring. one dose lasted for months. very true its dangerous stuff. get any of the gas on bare skin and you would get a burn like a flame. all the gas came from calor , this carried on for several years until something happened with calor, I think I recal it was taken over by ici and the company stopped supplying it because of the conflict with solid fert

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You would think it would positively nuke the grass?

had an injector 3 metre . similar tine to asubsoiler but smaller. had a pipe running down the rear to take the gas. disc running in front to cut a slot and car tyre behind to seal the slot. no burn at all unless you hit a large stone

MX7 said:

Now Anhydrous Ammonia has been mentioned, I assume it is be a cheaper form of N, but is the gas detrimental to earthworms and soil bacteria etc.
I have just read on the American "No Till Farmer" website that some farmers have stopped using Anhydrous because of its negative effects on soil life. That said I wonder if in the Canadian prairie provinces and in USA Northern States e.g North Dakota ,whether there are that many earthworms any way due to the frost penetrating so deep.
I would have had a job finding a worm in the soil we farmed (for 2 years) at Bonanza,Alberta!!!

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yes, and I will admit I am a bit conflicted with using it. But, I have reduced my use quite a bit & ultimately will abandon it altogether.
yes, highest concentration / cheapest N
logistics / ease of handling for a one man show make it a no brainer, especially not needing storage & handling facities or labour
yes, very detrimental to soil biology in the immediate zone it is applied, hence my conflict.
A lot of the negative issues in relation to it in NA is due to their application in narrow rows / bands, high N rates & cold soils.
Currently, I only use it on my summer row crops, which are grown in 1m wide rows. My soil is high clay, high OM & neutral to alkaline PH. I operate a zero till system, aiming for high levels of groundcover / surface residue.
So, I only apply NH3 in a narrow band every metre ( as in my picture in my previous post ), in warm moist soil ( moisture is crucial, as NH3 is highly attracted to moisture - that's one of the reason it burns human flesh ) Yes, this nukes everything in that row about 50mm wide, but there is 900mm of active biology between those rows which soon repopulate it. Warm moist soils with OM are crucial to this. Besides, we rely on the biology to convert the NH3 to a plant useable form. If I was using urea banded in the same situation at the same rates of N, I would expect similar toxicity levels within that fertiliser row.
My actual rates of N applied this way would vary from a max of 120 kg / N / ha to 50 kg. My average rate would be about 80kg N / ha ( 80kg N = 100kg actual NH3 product )
The main reason I use it in my summer crops is so I can side dress N in established crops once it appears to be minimal risk of crop failure, rather than spending the money / taking the risk prior to planting the crop. I could side dress or " drill " urea similar to how I apply gas, but then I run into all the logistical / handling & labour costs mentioned earlier. Spreading urea ( AN was banned in this country after 9/11 ) is not really an option in our summer time climate, although is widely used in our cool season ( wheat, barley, canola etc ) crops.
Ultimately, I am moving away from reliance on synthetic N anyway. I grow legume / pulse grain crops. From a risk management perspective ( financial risk, production risk ) I have adopted a low input / lower expectation model, rather than trying to chase the maximum yield. This year I am going to introduce cover crops or green manure crops into my rotation, purely for the purpose of building N, soil OM & soil biology. Eventually, if I can overcome the hurdles of supplying water, I would like to run cattle in short term mob grazing over these cover crops. I don't have any fences, not even boundary fences or along roadsides, but that is easy fixed with a temporary hotwire. I don't have any cattle either, but the plan is to just buy them in then sell them when I need to. As long as they gain a few kg & make a few $ in the process, then I am ahead Or maybe, just get big mobs in on short term agistment. My next door neighbour is a stock agent for one of our large national livestock / merchandise companies ( Landmark, used to be known as Dalgety's, some may be familiar ), so accessing cattle shouldn't be a problem. Water - now that is the problem, but not insurmountable. I just don't want to be carting water everday . . .

sorry, Ive gone completely off track here & forgotten which thread Im on
please return to normal transmission

ollie989898 said:

You would think it would positively nuke the grass?

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as long as the gas is going into moist soil & the slot is being sealed behind, you wont get any burn. I regularly use it beside my cotton & sorghum rows without any burn, although it stands out like dogs balls when you do have a problem

average farmer said:

when buying in bulk (loose) do you have to buy when its available or can you price well in front for say March delivery?

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Buy when you like, bought mine in October and will collect March/april/may... its still on a boat or being made at the moment.