‘Poor attitude’ to health and safety lands poultry firm and contractors in hot water

Grassman · Oct 5, 2014

My building I had was erected by a sub contractor paid by the building manufacturer.
He hired my telehandler as his had broken down.
He wouldn't use my access cage and insisted that a pallet was the usual way of lifting a man and materials. I wasn't over happy about it but they did it anyway.
Looking at it with hindsight I think I would of been partly responsible if anything had gone wrong.
Getting to be a bit of a minefield now with us farmers not really knowing who is responsible and assuming it's not our problem!

Old Boar · Oct 5, 2014

I was half watching a program just now on the QE2, and a bit came up about a bomb threat in the middle of the ocean. A team from the boat type SAS were sent in and landed in the sea, and up came a face I recognised - the man who had taught me H&S in one company!!!
Maybe I should not have challenged him so much and mucked about....

bobk · Oct 5, 2014

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Derrick Hughes · Oct 5, 2014

We all face danger every day of our lives from driving down the motorway to my boy playing rugby for the school team evryweek,
In some sectors they go completely over the top, a comparison being Vosa who haunt lorry drivers to death

TopBanana · Oct 5, 2014

Grassman said:
My building I had was erected by a sub contractor paid by the building manufacturer.
He hired my telehandler as his had broken down.
He wouldn't use my access cage and insisted that a pallet was the usual way of lifting a man and materials. I wasn't over happy about it but they did it anyway.
Looking at it with hindsight I think I would of been partly responsible if anything had gone wrong.
Getting to be a bit of a minefield now with us farmers not really knowing who is responsible and assuming it's not our problem!

As the landowner you would have been responsible for any accidents occurring on your premises, by lending the loader to someone to use in a knowingly dangerous way only compounds it if an accident occurred. The contractor would be standing alongside you in the dock but as the owner you will carry a fair Share of the blame.

Grassman · Oct 5, 2014

TopBanana said:
As the landowner you would have been responsible for any accidents occurring on your premises, by lending the loader to someone to use in a knowingly dangerous way only compounds it if an accident occurred. The contractor would be standing alongside you in the dock but as the owner you will carry a fair Share of the blame.

This is where the problem is. How do I know what is acceptable. I employed a reputable company to put up a building in a safe manner. I didn't say do anything unsafe!

Frodo · Oct 5, 2014

It is hard, but remember ignorance is no defence to the law. I know from experience that contractors are not keen on implementing anyone elses H&S rules, it is getting better though.

TopBanana · Oct 5, 2014

Grassman said:
This is where the problem is. How do I know what is acceptable. I employed a reputable company to put up a building in a safe manner. I didn't say do anything unsafe!

You could employ someone to specifically ensure the project is run in a safe manner, they would have a H&S such as
https://www.nebosh.org.uk/qualifications/certificate/default.asp?cref=54&ct=2 obviously an expense but large projects would legally need it.

If it was me for small projects I would ask what measures have been put in place to reduce the risk and likelihood of an accident occurring, using a pallet and loader to lift people isn't doing the above.

Dukes Fit · Oct 6, 2014

llamedos said:
What I would really like is for a qualified HSE executive worker, or even a retired or ex one, to come here and help us understand the myriad of rules and regulations thrown up in these court cases, primarily, where our duties start and finish when we employ a specialist contractor. Because in some of these case it seems the Farmer has to be a specialist in that contractors business

To be honest, your best bet is an independent Qhse advisor, as you'll get more emphasis on prevention and mitigation of risk.

TopBanana said:
As the landowner you would have been responsible for any accidents occurring on your premises, by lending the loader to someone to use in a knowingly dangerous way only compounds it if an accident occurred. The contractor would be standing alongside you in the dock but as the owner you will carry a fair Share of the blame.

That's just rubbish and stems from lack of knowledge.

Unfortunately in Agriculture, the general assumption that anything to do with H&S is a minefield of rules, blame culture and not to be trusted. It's the attitude that I dislike most about Farming and it needs to be addressed and kicked out of Farming completely.

TopBanana · Oct 6, 2014

Dukes Fit said:
To be honest, your best bet is an independent Qhse advisor, as you'll get more emphasis on prevention and mitigation of risk.

That's just rubbish and stems from lack of knowledge.

Unfortunately in Agriculture, the general assumption that anything to do with H&S is a minefield of rules, blame culture and not to be trusted. It's the attitude that I dislike most about Farming and it needs to be addressed and kicked out of Farming completely.

I have some knowledge and experience of implementing a working H&S policy within a company. There are rules, it can be complicated and if you no previous experience of H&S then an independent advisor would be worth it. I'm not scare mongering as in the event of an accident the landowner would bear responsibility for events on their land, go and find out yourself. I don't feel I should be kicked out of farming for that attitude, if anything I'm significantly more aware of its need within this industry.

Dukes Fit · Oct 6, 2014

So do I, I also hold qualifications in Qhse and A quailification in risk management and deal with it on a daily basis when away at work so feel I am suitably experienced to speak about it.

I didn't say you should be kicked out of Farming, I said the attitude needs to be kicked out of farming and I'll always stand by that statement.

Attitude to health and safety in Agriculture is generally poor which is ridiculous as it is literally to ensure your own personal safety and the safety of others.

Barleycorn · Oct 6, 2014

Dukes Fit said:
To be honest, your best bet is an independent Qhse advisor, as you'll get more emphasis on prevention and mitigation of risk.

That's just rubbish and stems from lack of knowledge.

Unfortunately in Agriculture, the general assumption that anything to do with H&S is a minefield of rules, blame culture and not to be trusted. It's the attitude that I dislike most about Farming and it needs to be addressed and kicked out of Farming completely.

We are currently updating our H & S policy, employing a safety advisor from the NFU. He says exactly what Topbanana has said. If you employ a contractor / builder and he breaks the rules you are liable.

Wheatonrotty · Oct 6, 2014

I think a lot of it comes down to common sense. Riding up on a pallet loaded with sheets sounds dangerous, so there's a fair chance it's wrong. Most of the reports of prosecutions are, like this one, after multiple visits when little has been done to correct what the inspectors are unhappy with.

Dukes Fit · Oct 6, 2014

Barleycorn said:
We are currently updating our H & S policy, employing a safety advisor from the NFU. He says exactly what Topbanana has said. If you employ a contractor / builder and he breaks the rules you are liable.

Then I would change your advisor as they are not doing their job properly and giving you the wrong information.

To absolve responsibility you have a number of options to mitigate risk of liability. One is to employ a qualified Qhse advisor to perform an assessment and audit of the worksite and contractors involved and supply a documented risk assessment and recommendations for conformance. This shows that you have taken reasonably practicable steps to ensure compliance with hse.

This is more than likely complete overkill for normal routine/light maintenence jobs and so not very practical.

Another option is to receive written statement from the contractor involved that they assume responsibility for all quality, health, safety and environmental issues/matters for works within their scope.

So long as you ensure a safe working environment/area. You are not responsible for their actions.

Grassman · Oct 6, 2014

Dukes Fit said:
Another option is to receive written statement from the contractor involved that they assume responsibility for all quality, health, safety and environmental issues/matters for works within their scope.

So long as you ensure a safe working environment/area. You are not responsible for their actions.

Now this sounds more sensible. But is it legal? I assumed by employing a professional firm that does this job everyday that they would be responsible anyway.

Frodo · Oct 6, 2014

Dukes Fit said:
Then I would change your advisor as they are not doing their job properly and giving you the wrong information.

To absolve responsibility you have a number of options to mitigate risk of liability. One is to employ a qualified Qhse advisor to perform an assessment and audit of the worksite and contractors involved and supply a documented risk assessment and recommendations for conformance. This shows that you have taken reasonably practicable steps to ensure compliance with hse.

This is more than likely complete overkill for normal routine/light maintenence jobs and so not very practical.

Another option is to receive written statement from the contractor involved that they assume responsibility for all quality, health, safety and environmental issues/matters for works within their scope.

So long as you ensure a safe working environment/area. You are not responsible for their actions.

Not sure if I agree. Yes what you suggest will show you have taken steps and reduce risk
, but if something goes wrong on your business there is a reason and you have to show that reasonable steps were taken to avoid risk not just have the paper work in place. Even having a qualified person overseeing the contractor wont work if there is an accident as he obviously did not do his job and you were responsible for him.

If you see someone doing something silly and dangerous on your farm you should stop them its common sense.

With the benifit if hindsight most accidents are foreseeable.

Frodo · Oct 6, 2014

Grassman said:
Now this sounds more sensible. But is it legal? I assumed by employing a professional firm that does this job everyday that they would be responsible anyway.

The firms in the OP court case are professional and will have all the risk assessments, but unfortunately on at least two occasions have not followed them. I know it is hard as contractors employees tend to avoid communicating with the site owner and you want to get job done etc, but you are responsible for your own business and effectively cannot contract out of this obligation. You can however take measures to reduce the risk and in doing so hopefully no one will be hurt.

Irrespective of the legal position I would be pretty emotionally upset if anyone was seriously injured on my property.

rob1 · Oct 6, 2014

Dukes Fit said:
Then I would change your advisor as they are not doing their job properly and giving you the wrong information.

To absolve responsibility you have a number of options to mitigate risk of liability. One is to employ a qualified Qhse advisor to perform an assessment and audit of the worksite and contractors involved and supply a documented risk assessment and recommendations for conformance. This shows that you have taken reasonably practicable steps to ensure compliance with hse.

This is more than likely complete overkill for normal routine/light maintenence jobs and so not very practical.

Another option is to receive written statement from the contractor involved that they assume responsibility for all quality, health, safety and environmental issues/matters for works within their scope.

So long as you ensure a safe working environment/area. You are not responsible for their actions.

In an ideal world yes but, we have all seen cases where the site owner has been done despite having "no" control over the contractors. I have had two sheds put up this year, the first while I was away on holiday, some kind person reported the chaps doing it for not having side rails on the roof, we had a visit while putting the side cladding up the next wk luckily the roof was complete and I said to the lady inspector that I was away and assured her that I told the guys to comply with all HSE rules, she said if it goes wrong on your land you carry the can. The second one we put up I made sure I did a safety assessment, made the guys sign it as agreed practice and used the mtr cage as side safety with the sheets in it and nets under the roof and took plenty of pictures to show it being used, they still didnt like it because they said that someone could fall 500mm into the cage, I pointed out the rails on the cage were above the roof and we were to fat to get between them and fall into it, I think soon sheds will be getting very dear to erect glad I only have to do one more next year and then thats it.

roscoe erf · Oct 6, 2014

rob1 said:
In an ideal world yes but, we have all seen cases where the site owner has been done despite having "no" control over the contractors. I have had two sheds put up this year, the first while I was away on holiday, some kind person reported the chaps doing it for not having side rails on the roof, we had a visit while putting the side cladding up the next wk luckily the roof was complete and I said to the lady inspector that I was away and assured her that I told the guys to comply with all HSE rules, she said if it goes wrong on your land you carry the can. The second one we put up I made sure I did a safety assessment, made the guys sign it as agreed practice and used the mtr cage as side safety with the sheets in it and nets under the roof and took plenty of pictures to show it being used, they still didnt like it because they said that someone could fall 500mm into the cage, I pointed out the rails on the cage were above the roof and we were to fat to get between them and fall into it, I think soon sheds will be getting very dear to erect glad I only have to do one more next year and then thats it.

put it up at night

Grassman · Oct 6, 2014

Another example.
I am having an extension on the house. A builder is doing the job. A professional scaffolding team came and erected the scaffold. How would I know what is acceptable when erecting scaffold?
If it's a private residence I understand it's the builders responsibility but with a farm where the house is used as part of the business then I assume I would be responsible for their actions.

‘Poor attitude’ to health and safety lands poultry firm and contractors in hot water

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