- Location
- somerset
a farmer, near us, is min-til plus, tills between the tramlines, which are permanent.
No worms in DD land
- Thread starter Mounty
- Start date
Yes, can CTF and just remove interim wheelings.
Acke
Member
- Location
- Sweden Enköping
The Agricultur University of Sweden do some research of how many worms /ha of different way of farming . My farm was 1 farm that was checked, we have 6 years of DD and average 2,5 million worms /ha . It was the most they have found on 20 different farms.
Im sure we save alot of worms not cultivate any at all! The research was under the project ”Soilman
Im sure we save alot of worms not cultivate any at all! The research was under the project ”Soilman
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
This is an interesting thread and I’d like @Warnesworth ’s opinion about it.
However, I’ll add a few pennies worth myself:
Growing up in East Anglia on the Cambridge Fens, then Beccles series Clays in North Suffolk, until 1976, everything was ploughed. Sea Gulls were a constant sight when ploughing and were regarded as a good sign that your land was in good condition with obviously plenty of worms in the soil.
Then it became fashionable to use a Bomford Super-flow or a Vicon Jumbo-buster, instead on the plough. We still saw some Sea Gulls, but the system died a death because of a massive explosion in weeds, Especially wild Oats!
At about the same time Betinson invented their Direct drill which became very popular in the Cotswolds on Brash and the ICI 10 tonne Club was born. It also got used a lot for establishing Rape all over the Country, but needed a lot of Slug pellets to be successful.
However, on all but light and brashly land the Betinson (and MF130) quickly fell out of fashion because the land became sad after a year or two and yield quickly declined.
The regular sight of Sea gulls also declined.
Having returned to the plough, the explosion in use of Fungicides such as Bayleton (straight, BM and CF) saw yields go up.
A return to the plough also saw the Sea Gulls return. Then in about 2010, tools such as the Sumo Trio started to appear and Min-TIL was reborn. We still saw a few gulls, but Blackgrass became a serious problem. For some reason land also became sad again. It often just didn’t smell right. Eventually I returned to the plough and by the third year of doing so, the Sea Gulls all came back! As I’m now as far from the sea as you can be in this Country, this surprises me!
The Blackgrass problem immediate declined and my yields returned to normal, In fact, getting better and better.
However, it has always seemed to me that there are some years, just like this one, where soils are in very good conditions with a very good crumb on top and where dry summer’s have left deep cracks, which would be ideal for No-TIL. Why go to all the expense of Ploughing and Combi drilling when this happens?
So, this year, I have drilled half and half.
My view At the moment is that No-TIL Should not be treated as a religion on all farms, but as a tool that can be used when conditions are optimum for it. Which might actually be the majority of years.
There are huge advantages and cost savings. The No-TIL proving to use 1/8th of the amount of fuel on this farm this year.
I once swore that I had given up ploughing twice in my life and there would not be a third time. My view now is moderated, but I will say that I will never be without a plough or Combi in the shed - It just won’t be coming out every year!
As for spreading muck on No-TIL land: No problem, you just put it on and drill through it. I see advantages to using it on some but not all parts of the farm. I haven’t noticed more Sea gulls where I do.
There is also a huge benefit to rotating grassland around the farm. Which in my case is where Stewardship makes a lot of sense.
However, I’ll add a few pennies worth myself:
Growing up in East Anglia on the Cambridge Fens, then Beccles series Clays in North Suffolk, until 1976, everything was ploughed. Sea Gulls were a constant sight when ploughing and were regarded as a good sign that your land was in good condition with obviously plenty of worms in the soil.
Then it became fashionable to use a Bomford Super-flow or a Vicon Jumbo-buster, instead on the plough. We still saw some Sea Gulls, but the system died a death because of a massive explosion in weeds, Especially wild Oats!
At about the same time Betinson invented their Direct drill which became very popular in the Cotswolds on Brash and the ICI 10 tonne Club was born. It also got used a lot for establishing Rape all over the Country, but needed a lot of Slug pellets to be successful.
However, on all but light and brashly land the Betinson (and MF130) quickly fell out of fashion because the land became sad after a year or two and yield quickly declined.
The regular sight of Sea gulls also declined.
Having returned to the plough, the explosion in use of Fungicides such as Bayleton (straight, BM and CF) saw yields go up.
A return to the plough also saw the Sea Gulls return. Then in about 2010, tools such as the Sumo Trio started to appear and Min-TIL was reborn. We still saw a few gulls, but Blackgrass became a serious problem. For some reason land also became sad again. It often just didn’t smell right. Eventually I returned to the plough and by the third year of doing so, the Sea Gulls all came back! As I’m now as far from the sea as you can be in this Country, this surprises me!
The Blackgrass problem immediate declined and my yields returned to normal, In fact, getting better and better.
However, it has always seemed to me that there are some years, just like this one, where soils are in very good conditions with a very good crumb on top and where dry summer’s have left deep cracks, which would be ideal for No-TIL. Why go to all the expense of Ploughing and Combi drilling when this happens?
So, this year, I have drilled half and half.
My view At the moment is that No-TIL Should not be treated as a religion on all farms, but as a tool that can be used when conditions are optimum for it. Which might actually be the majority of years.
There are huge advantages and cost savings. The No-TIL proving to use 1/8th of the amount of fuel on this farm this year.
I once swore that I had given up ploughing twice in my life and there would not be a third time. My view now is moderated, but I will say that I will never be without a plough or Combi in the shed - It just won’t be coming out every year!
As for spreading muck on No-TIL land: No problem, you just put it on and drill through it. I see advantages to using it on some but not all parts of the farm. I haven’t noticed more Sea gulls where I do.
There is also a huge benefit to rotating grassland around the farm. Which in my case is where Stewardship makes a lot of sense.
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- Location
- Bedfordshire
I can see what sort of soil type you are used to. Couldn't successfully do that on Hanslope or Evesham clays.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
The idea of spring ploughing on its own, let alone drilling behind!
If memory serves me correctly the guys who started Velcourt started using D/D in a big way on the Cotswolds using Gramoxone to desiccate weeds ( note it did not kill many weeds!)weeds especially Couch).The system allowed them to expand rapidly due to such low machinery/ establishment costs. Then Oopd, yields began to decline due to Couch and other weeds depressing yields, farms started to go to rack and ruin which they managed, I believe it nearly led to Velcourt’s down fall. So a quick U turn back to the plough and combi drilling etc,plus I think it was about the time the German, Scholswieg Holstein ,high in put high output system of growing cereals was introduced in to the Uk by the then “BASF”Agro chemical company , which I believe Velcourt adopted successfully especially on farms in the Eastern counties which they had not been kicked out of.
All interesting stuff, but please feel free to correct me if my has played tricks with my past .
Not to be an old stick in the mud , the past has gone forever., “Just be prepared to learn from it , god help you if you are so arrogant you aren’t prepared to”.
I rest my gibberish case
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
Far from gibberish!
More like hitting the nail very firmly on the head!
ICI and their Gramoxone jumped onto the DD idea as in was a system that required a non specific herbicide prior to drilling and Glyphoste hadn’t come to market at that stage.
Paraquat was a very poisonous spray to all life and had it not been GB’s Imperial Chemical Industies own invention, would never have been licensed for any use at all!
Unfortunately, it was useless against Couch.
Ironically for this thread, one of the benefits from using DD was allegedly the increase of earth worms!
Velcourt certainly caused a few stirs, both in the Cotswolds and East Anglia. They were deemed as Very cutting edge.
Yes, they were sacked from a few places for getting it wrong occasionally.
Their Farm Managers would be sacked if the sprayer wasn’t being used on every occasion it could.
They also tried ultra early drilling of very low seed rate wheat in August. More akin to the Lalloo (?) system that the Schleswig Holstein perhaps.
They would recruit their managers straight out of College specifically form non-farming backgrounds, so that thy hadn’t been contaminated from “older” farm experiences. Most of them went on to become Agronomists. Good ones too!
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
I wouldn’t say quite so different as that. But we have no doubt learned and awful lot since then and without the experiences from then, would not have learned to make it as successful as it is now.
Quite agree
- Location
- somerset
but still remembered by many, who use it, as an excuse, not to try now !
Exfarmer
Member
- Location
- Bury St Edmunds
I remember ploughing up old PP in the 60's and 70's you could see the fairy rings in the soil and some of the rings may have been 100 yards across as they just got bigger and bigger. oddly their would be huge crop of mushrooms often in that first crop . The biggest crop though I saw was in the first DD from we ever did planting kale into old PP , you could literally not walk, with out standing on them, right across the field.
- Location
- North of Perth
I'm no no arable farmer but could you not do a simple wee experiment for yourself.
Just get some worm farms fill them with your soil.same number of worms in each.
1 with just soil
1 with chopped straw on the top
1 with greenery/fym on top
And see what happens from there?
Just get some worm farms fill them with your soil.same number of worms in each.
1 with just soil
1 with chopped straw on the top
1 with greenery/fym on top
And see what happens from there?
- Location
- somerset
mushrooms used to be everywhere, here, now see very few, they are fungi, which should be present, in a 'good' soil.
in the last couple or so years, not ploughing, but tines, and shallow working, we are starting to see a few, and, in places, i haven't seen any for 30/40 years. I really think, that we do not fully understand the relationship, with fungi, bacteria, and invertebrates, within the soil. Having tried not ploughing, just tines, and p/h, drill, we have seen a significant difference, ie, mushrooms !, and as said earlier, seagulls increasing, we have had a very dry summer, but now we have had rain, some of what we thought f####, coming back, very well. There is a lot to learn, or relearn, about soil structure, and we think, the better the structure, the better the crop, time will prove either way.
in the last couple or so years, not ploughing, but tines, and shallow working, we are starting to see a few, and, in places, i haven't seen any for 30/40 years. I really think, that we do not fully understand the relationship, with fungi, bacteria, and invertebrates, within the soil. Having tried not ploughing, just tines, and p/h, drill, we have seen a significant difference, ie, mushrooms !, and as said earlier, seagulls increasing, we have had a very dry summer, but now we have had rain, some of what we thought f####, coming back, very well. There is a lot to learn, or relearn, about soil structure, and we think, the better the structure, the better the crop, time will prove either way.
As a newbie to this and 18 years out of practical farming ( if you can call it that as bag and bottle was management company of choice weapon) how do worms say your soil is healthy? I’ve seen countless worm piles on a sand/jogging track today!
curious to learn for my own knowledge
curious to learn for my own knowledge
Warp Land Farmer
Member
- Location
- Hazzard County
Really? (None sarcastic) ... why is that? I would of though all soils baring desert would have worms.
Exfarmer
Member
- Location
- Bury St Edmunds
No north American worms were Lost in the last ice age.
glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
?????