"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

NZDan · Dec 21, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
Yep, 3-5 years and I'm literally counting down the days
We will need some, but I'm picking that CFA ewes will be the best tool for the job, rather than soft little lambs etc.
But yeah, we plan to get hundreds of trees and shrubs planted and established well before we get the ragwort-processors back.
Going to go all single-wire lanes for a start but use 4 clips per post so we can turn individual lanes into "long sheep paddocks" with a couple of reels, if the need arises. We'll add the second wire between systems, but aim to just leave single wire over the water system

Thus the south side of the ranch (28ha) will be 3 x 8ha techno systems with a 4ha chunk up the back, so technically 3½ systems. The ½ will be a great place to go as a reserve (wet and dry times) and we'll look to halving the cell size to 500m² so still 80 paddocks. Be good for a smaller mob like our own cows and calves.

We'll see how it goes, thinking of all the time it will free up I won't mind putting up and taking down fences on the other 15ha so much. It's just when it's constant you have days it begins to feel chore-like

How many lanes in each system?

NZDan · Dec 21, 2020

holwellcourtfarm said:
Showing my (copious) sheep ignorance: CFA?

Cast for age

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

NZDan said:
How many lanes in each system?

Just 2- "there and back" is how I see it.
Really it's one system with 6 longer lanes (we're only about 800m across from west to east, so they'll be under 50 m across) with a couple of shorter lanes to match the step in our south boundary. 6 4ha lanes and 2 x 2ha.

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

davieh3350 said:
looks like cocksfoot

Dactylis glomerata - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hated by many, I love the stuff though.

Oh yeah, I forgot that

we actively encourage it, most species are absolute gems if managed well

NZDan · Dec 21, 2020

Fenwick said:
I've a question for those of you with sheep.

I've got a cattle opération, and have always had a dozen ewes or so for our freezer.

As a général rule we don't worm thé cattle.

We do worm thé sheep. (set stockéd all year). If we don't worm thèm twice a year it quickly goes to SH*t. (we don't worm thé lambs)

I've just bought some more sheep. I want to drastically reduce / eliminate thé wormers.

I will eventually get thè sheep rotating with thé cattle. We do have plenty of plants high in tannins in some pastures (chicory, plantain, tresfoil, chestnut). Thèse are not pastures where thé sheep currently graze.

Could i realistically select for parasite résistance ? Could I eventually stop using wormers? Any thoughts would bé appreciated. (Lets Say I know nothing about sheep).

Not worming lambs will be causing the worm burden in your ewes, worm burdens over the summer/autumn are primarily caused by eggs shed by lambs in the spring/early summer. ewes shouldn't need drenching at all, if they do then strategic drenching of say triplets or 2ths at lambing time is more than enough. 12 ewes grazing cattle pasture shouldn't ever need worming, what FEC levels to they get to before you worm them?
Yes you can selected for worm resistance and yes you could reduce wormer usage, but it depends on what other compromises you want to make. High cattle/low sheep stocking rate, lower stocking rate leading to bigger better fed ewes and lambs, all lambs sold at weaning. If you're going to select for worm resistance how much of your selection will be on worm resistance and how much on other traits?

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

som farmer said:
one of the most dangerous things you can read, on a large variety of things, is, kills 99% of all xyz, that is the problem with wormers etc

That's the issue, you are infact actively selecting for resistant organisms each and every time you use a poison to "fix" a problem.
The problem exists in our mind, and is entirely our problem because we perpetuate it by how we manage

Dan's example above is great - removing youngstock is an easy step to removing the problem. But not if your main business is selling youngstock.

GC74 · Dec 21, 2020

onesiedale said:
I do hope that you didn't put the mower on and just tidy up because you were having visitors? @GC74

I'm pretty sure he did

the cover story was something about using it as a cover crop and mowed it to build organic matter. Think he convinced the old man but I knew better

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

GC74 said:
I'm pretty sure he did the cover story was something about using it as a cover crop and mowed it to build organic matter. Think he convinced the old man but I knew better

Poor old paddock though

it looks so reflective and empty

GC74 · Dec 21, 2020

Thanks for allowing us to visit kiwi pete....it was an enjoyable afternoon, even learnt a few things. Nice drive too haven't been down that way for ages.

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

GC74 said:
Thanks for allowing us to visit kiwi pete....it was an enjoyable afternoon, even learnt a few things. Nice drive too haven't been down that way for ages.

Any time - I mean that.

Fake it ‘til you make it · Dec 21, 2020

What are people’s views on management of hedgerows in an Holistic context? I think we have gone down the wrong road. Cutting hard every year seems to reduce shelter (for stock and wildlife), and seems to encourage ‘weeds’ like elder. Is heavy annual cutting of the thorn bushes basically ‘overgrazing’ the hedge, and leaving opportunities for less desirable plants like elder? Or am I looking at it too simplistically? Also if I am honest, I prefer the look of a big, thick hedge with proper branches, rather than a neatly trimmed ‘garden’ type hedge. Would be interested to hear views, and any resources on this subject.

Treg · Dec 21, 2020

Fake it ‘til you make it said:
What are people’s views on management of hedgerows in an Holistic context? I think we have gone down the wrong road. Cutting hard every year seems to reduce shelter (for stock and wildlife), and seems to encourage ‘weeds’ like elder. Is heavy annual cutting of the thorn bushes basically ‘overgrazing’ the hedge, and leaving opportunities for less desirable plants like elder? Or am I looking at it too simplistically? Also if I am honest, I prefer the look of a big, thick hedge with proper branches, rather than a neatly trimmed ‘garden’ type hedge. Would be interested to hear views, and any resources on this subject.

I think you've answered it yourself, ones a hedge & one is a trimmed bank.
I cut 1/3 of the farm a year & even then don't cut tight to the hedge.
It's very exposed here so any growth is welcome but usually anything that does grow , grows at a angle .

Poorbuthappy · Dec 21, 2020

Fake it ‘til you make it said:
What are people’s views on management of hedgerows in an Holistic context? I think we have gone down the wrong road. Cutting hard every year seems to reduce shelter (for stock and wildlife), and seems to encourage ‘weeds’ like elder. Is heavy annual cutting of the thorn bushes basically ‘overgrazing’ the hedge, and leaving opportunities for less desirable plants like elder? Or am I looking at it too simplistically? Also if I am honest, I prefer the look of a big, thick hedge with proper branches, rather than a neatly trimmed ‘garden’ type hedge. Would be interested to hear views, and any resources on this subject.

Have started letting most of our hedges up, with a view to either coppicing them, or laying them. Both are also options under CS scheme, which I may go for.
Letting them go too far I don't think is good however, as they just get leggy and shade out all the undergrowth. Some nice hedgerow trees are good though.

holwellcourtfarm · Dec 21, 2020

An interesting one. At Dad's place the old landlord stopped maintaining anything and let all the hedges go. After many years some were 20 feet wide and had remarkably little diversity in them. The middles were so dark and thick that even the songbirds didn't use them. We set about them with a chainsaw and 360 excavator and, as well as regaining quite a few acres, created much more diversity of growth in them.

Really I suppose it depends what you want from them. Do you see them as:

Ecological assets
Carbon stores
Livestock (and wildlife) food sources
Stockproof barriers
Boundary markers
Security fences
Aesthetic landscape features
Liabilities!
Other purpose

Each requires a different management style although some overlap.

Hitting them hard every year with a flail is very hard treatment. Leaving them unmanaged tends to lead to chaos (which is fine in a rewilded environment).

Fenwick · Dec 21, 2020

NZDan said:
Not worming lambs will be causing the worm burden in your ewes, worm burdens over the summer/autumn are primarily caused by eggs shed by lambs in the spring/early summer. ewes shouldn't need drenching at all, if they do then strategic drenching of say triplets or 2ths at lambing time is more than enough. 12 ewes grazing cattle pasture shouldn't ever need worming, what FEC levels to they get to before you worm them?
Yes you can selected for worm resistance and yes you could reduce wormer usage, but it depends on what other compromises you want to make. High cattle/low sheep stocking rate, lower stocking rate leading to bigger better fed ewes and lambs, all lambs sold at weaning. If you're going to select for worm resistance how much of your selection will be on worm resistance and how much on other traits?

Thanks for your reply.
Thé 12 sheep in question haven't ever been run with cows. But at least two would get dirty bums by septembre/octobre. Pretty much all thé lambs keptnon would too.

Didn't worm thé lambs because we eat thèm. I don't want to eat wormers.

Never have done FECs

and yes now I have more sheep I could from now on.

I am willing to compromise on both growth ratés and carcass confirmation when selecting parasite résistance.
I won't compromise on fertility and mothering ability. - This is thé schéma de use for our cattle, with some success.

I will get thé sheep running with thé cattle at some point.

Henarar · Dec 21, 2020

Fake it ‘til you make it said:
What are people’s views on management of hedgerows in an Holistic context? I think we have gone down the wrong road. Cutting hard every year seems to reduce shelter (for stock and wildlife), and seems to encourage ‘weeds’ like elder. Is heavy annual cutting of the thorn bushes basically ‘overgrazing’ the hedge, and leaving opportunities for less desirable plants like elder? Or am I looking at it too simplistically? Also if I am honest, I prefer the look of a big, thick hedge with proper branches, rather than a neatly trimmed ‘garden’ type hedge. Would be interested to hear views, and any resources on this subject.

only cut the sides for 15 or 20 years then lay them, that way they get a long rest period

Fake it ‘til you make it · Dec 21, 2020

Henarar said:
only cut the sides for 15 or 20 years then lay them, that way they get a long rest period

That’s what I thought. Dear job, especially if you do it all at once, bit like stock fencing

Crofter64 · Dec 21, 2020

Fenwick said:
I will get thé sheep running with thé cattle at some point.

its quite simple really.they get alongfine. the only issue is fencing.One of my neighbours told me years ago never to run cattle and sheep together as the cattle will get ‘Cathedral fever’ ( cattarhal fever). fortunately I ignored him.It makes life so much easier.

Henarar · Dec 21, 2020

Fake it ‘til you make it said:
That’s what I thought. Dear job, especially if you do it all at once, but like stock fencing

When I get the chance and the inclination I am going to work out how many metres of hedge we have, it would be interesting to see how much we would have to do each year,

JohnGalway · Dec 21, 2020

Crofter64 said:
its quite simple really.they get alongfine. the only issue is fencing.One of my neighbours told me years ago never to run cattle and sheep together as the cattle will get ‘Cathedral fever’ ( cattarhal fever). fortunately I ignored him.It makes life so much easier.

Sounds like my neighbour, firmly convinced sheep dung will poison cattle. But, to be fair there is a health issue, me avoiding her like the plague.

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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