"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

NZDan · Dec 21, 2020

Fenwick said:
Thanks for your reply.
Thé 12 sheep in question haven't ever been run with cows. But at least two would get dirty bums by septembre/octobre. Pretty much all thé lambs keptnon would too.

Didn't worm thé lambs because we eat thèm. I don't want to eat wormers.

Never have done FECs and yes now I have more sheep I could from now on.

I am willing to compromise on both growth ratés and carcass confirmation when selecting parasite résistance.
I won't compromise on fertility and mothering ability. - This is thé schéma de use for our cattle, with some success.

I will get thé sheep running with thé cattle at some point.

Dags are not a good indicator of worms, it may just be that they were dirty ewes, if you're going to select for worm resistance you need to select for less dags as well or you will finish up with a mob of lower worm/higher dag sheep. I suspect if you cull the two dirty ewes the dag issue will disappear

Crofter64 · Dec 21, 2020

@Kiwi Pete all this talk of hedges makes me wonder how you manage grazing all year with so little shade? This past summer was very hot here and I just couldn’t leave the pregant cows to roast in the sun so had a back alley to the barn. Do you ever take the stock to shade?

bendigeidfran · Dec 21, 2020

Our family farm has miles of hedges, fields are 2 to 5 acers.
In Grandfarther's day they used to lay the hedges about 20 to 25yrs.
They valued the wood very much back then,
Lay two or three a year. You could compare it to a grass wedge.
I think that cutting them short and tidy IS like short grass grazing.
I manage mine for shelter ( lambing) and wildlife.

farmgineer · Dec 21, 2020

What do you guys recommend when it comes to liming? Just had a block tested and it's come back at 5.5ph... recommended 3 ton of lime per acre, which on 20 acres is spot of money in my opinion. Do you value this as highly as conventional ag?

Next question, if I bought the lime now and added it to the manure in the shed, this would reduce the ammonia smell and make my straw last longer... I think... Would this still act the same way on the pasture? Or would the effect be reduced? Then I could spread the lot in one go and save on compaction hopefully, I could also offset some of the straw costs for this year against the lime. (I know out wintering would have been best but we're not at that stage yet)

Thanks in advance

Henarar · Dec 21, 2020

bendigeidfran said:
Our family farm has miles of hedges, fields are 2 to 5 acers.
In Grandfarther's day they used to lay the hedges about 20 to 25yrs.
They valued the wood very much back then,
Lay two or three a year. You could compare it to a grass wedge.
I think that cutting them short and tidy IS like short grass grazing.
I manage mine for shelter ( lambing) and wildlife.

Wood for logs has a good value again now, A mate lays the hedges here and I help when I can, he has the wood it helps the job along

Henarar · Dec 21, 2020

Crofter64 said:
@Kiwi Pete all this talk of hedges makes me wonder how you manage grazing all year with so little shade? This past summer was very hot here and I just couldn’t leave the pregant cows to roast in the sun so had a back alley to the barn. Do you ever take the stock to shade?

Pete give them all a parasol

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

Crofter64 said:
@Kiwi Pete all this talk of hedges makes me wonder how you manage grazing all year with so little shade? This past summer was very hot here and I just couldn’t leave the pregant cows to roast in the sun so had a back alley to the barn. Do you ever take the stock to shade?

By the time we really need the shade, 'our' stock will be gone away home. It really doesn't get uncomfortably hot this far down the island.

Sure, shade will be beneficial, but it's not a major concern, we tend to get a couple of "hot" hours then the easterly gets up and makes it nice again.

Rob Garrett · Dec 21, 2020

Fenwick said:
Thanks for your reply.
Thé 12 sheep in question haven't ever been run with cows. But at least two would get dirty bums by septembre/octobre. Pretty much all thé lambs keptnon would too.

Didn't worm thé lambs because we eat thèm. I don't want to eat wormers.

Never have done FECs [emoji52] and yes now I have more sheep I could from now on.

I am willing to compromise on both growth ratés and carcass confirmation when selecting parasite résistance.
I won't compromise on fertility and mothering ability. - This is thé schéma de use for our cattle, with some success.

I will get thé sheep running with thé cattle at some point.

Be aware of "Barbers Pole" worm if you stop drenching ewes. Went zero wormer on ewes for a few years here, then had a bad do. We run ewe lambs/Hogg's on hard dirty (high worm risk) ground over summer & only keep the best ones for breeding. Stopped doing FEC's, time/money etc.

hendrebc · Dec 21, 2020

farmgineer said:
What do you guys recommend when it comes to liming? Just had a block tested and it's come back at 5.5ph... recommended 3 ton of lime per acre, which on 20 acres is spot of money in my opinion. Do you value this as highly as conventional ag?

Next question, if I bought the lime now and added it to the manure in the shed, this would reduce the ammonia smell and make my straw last longer... I think... Would this still act the same way on the pasture? Or would the effect be reduced? Then I could spread the lot in one go and save on compaction hopefully, I could also offset some of the straw costs for this year against the lime. (I know out wintering would have been best but we're not at that stage yet)

Thanks in advance

I used to help someone who did that with lime and it was great as bedding. Not sure what type of lime he used though bit it must have been quite cheap because we layered the shed with it about 6 inches deep at calving.
He did say the pH of the fields were very good where he spread muck but he was doing it every year and had been for a long time.
My only worry with it would be that you couldn't spread it accurately enough to get enough on every acre evenly.
I was going to get some bedding sand to do that with this year to at least help the pH a bit and do a bit every year like that. But bedding sand has gone stupid expensive this year apparently so I never bothered phoning for a price even. If it's going to be expensive anyway I may as well lime it properly or not bother was my thinking.

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

farmgineer said:
What do you guys recommend when it comes to liming? Just had a block tested and it's come back at 5.5ph... recommended 3 ton of lime per acre, which on 20 acres is spot of money in my opinion. Do you value this as highly as conventional ag?

Next question, if I bought the lime now and added it to the manure in the shed, this would reduce the ammonia smell and make my straw last longer... I think... Would this still act the same way on the pasture? Or would the effect be reduced? Then I could spread the lot in one go and save on compaction hopefully, I could also offset some of the straw costs for this year against the lime. (I know out wintering would have been best but we're not at that stage yet)

Thanks in advance

Good question. I'm all for lime when it's needed, but I would say that as I'm employed to spread lime!

Depends to a degree, what inputs you use and the pH of those. If you're using or have used a bit of acid-based fert then it's very necessary to counter that, likewise if your biome is acidic then the muck probably will be too, especially if it's relatively fresh stuff.
Quite interesting to get some litmus papers and test urine pH, it's quite a revealing indicator of rumen health and it's all related

but back to your question, lime is probably one of the better things to apply to your land, there will no doubt be a "legacy" of unavailable nutrients and building biology to access those is a good idea

a low pH will limit the diversity of your soil biology.

A ton/ac is pretty standard fare around here, maybe 2t/ac for worked-up ground. Depends how the spreading cost is, 1 trip is cheaper than 2 or 3

Fenwick · Dec 21, 2020

Fake it ‘til you make it said:
What are people’s views on management of hedgerows in an Holistic context? I think we have gone down the wrong road. Cutting hard every year seems to reduce shelter (for stock and wildlife), and seems to encourage ‘weeds’ like elder. Is heavy annual cutting of the thorn bushes basically ‘overgrazing’ the hedge, and leaving opportunities for less desirable plants like elder? Or am I looking at it too simplistically? Also if I am honest, I prefer the look of a big, thick hedge with proper branches, rather than a neatly trimmed ‘garden’ type hedge. Would be interested to hear views, and any resources on this subject.

Thé brits and their hedges!

Dont do anything to thé hedges and thén they becomes a line of trees. Thé cattle prune back each side up to head height.

Thén every twenty years or so you got a stock of firewood.

Pretty standard over here. Never Seen Anyone trimming a hedge, except thé council.

Kiwi Pete · Dec 21, 2020

Fenwick said:
Thé brits and their hedges!

Dont do anything to thé hedges and thén they becomes a line of trees. Thé cattle prune back each side up to head height.

Thén every twenty years or so you got a stock of firewood.

Pretty standard over here. Never Seen Anyone trimming a hedge, except thé council.

Lots of little low hedges are probably the worst of both worlds? Like min-till?

I like "the gappy hedge" where air circulation still happens, a solid windstopper causes turbulence .... or even wide contour rows.

Karliboy · Dec 21, 2020

farmgineer said:
What do you guys recommend when it comes to liming? Just had a block tested and it's come back at 5.5ph... recommended 3 ton of lime per acre, which on 20 acres is spot of money in my opinion. Do you value this as highly as conventional ag?

Next question, if I bought the lime now and added it to the manure in the shed, this would reduce the ammonia smell and make my straw last longer... I think... Would this still act the same way on the pasture? Or would the effect be reduced? Then I could spread the lot in one go and save on compaction hopefully, I could also offset some of the straw costs for this year against the lime. (I know out wintering would have been best but we're not at that stage yet)

Thanks in advance

Im sure I’ve seen something somewhere that adding lime to the muck a good while before being spread as in the shed like you say that the neutralising value of the lime takes a good knock before it actually gets to the land but don’t hold me to that.
I wish I had a decent camera as looking across the valley at my land now as it is worlds apart, the hill used to look dull and brown through winter like all neighbouring land but now 2 years later since I put it on it’s got some good deep green colour which surely cannot be a bad thing.
Where do you farm out of interest

exmoor dave · Dec 21, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
Yep, 3-5 years and I'm literally counting down the days
We will need some, but I'm picking that CFA ewes will be the best tool for the job, rather than soft little lambs etc.
But yeah, we plan to get hundreds of trees and shrubs planted and established well before we get the ragwort-processors back.
Going to go all single-wire lanes for a start but use 4 clips per post so we can turn individual lanes into "long sheep paddocks" with a couple of reels, if the need arises. We'll add the second wire between systems, but aim to just leave single wire over the water system

Thus the south side of the ranch (28ha) will be 3 x 8ha techno systems with a 4ha chunk up the back, so technically 3½ systems. The ½ will be a great place to go as a reserve (wet and dry times) and we'll look to halving the cell size to 500m² so still 80 paddocks. Be good for a smaller mob like our own cows and calves.

We'll see how it goes, thinking of all the time it will free up I won't mind putting up and taking down fences on the other 15ha so much. It's just when it's constant you have days it begins to feel chore-like

Great to here plans coming together!

Did you manage to get the heap of 2nd hand wire and micro drinkers you were eyeing up?

Kiwi Pete · Dec 22, 2020

exmoor dave said:
Great to here plans coming together!

Did you manage to get the heap of 2nd hand wire and micro drinkers you were eyeing up?

Yes, it's all still up there. There was a bit of a development but it didn't eventuate, but there is enough wire there to fence 100s of acres.

Congratulations too mate

what a Christmas present!!

Kiwi Pete · Dec 22, 2020

Right on cue, @Crofter64, our big sunshade comes rollin' in

this was 2pm

11am

6pm

one of the big "advantages" of living right on the edge of a temperate rainforest, 3 miles from the sea

GC74 · Dec 22, 2020

farmgineer said:
What do you guys recommend when it comes to liming? Just had a block tested and it's come back at 5.5ph... recommended 3 ton of lime per acre, which on 20 acres is spot of money in my opinion. Do you value this as highly as conventional ag?

Next question, if I bought the lime now and added it to the manure in the shed, this would reduce the ammonia smell and make my straw last longer... I think... Would this still act the same way on the pasture? Or would the effect be reduced? Then I could spread the lot in one go and save on compaction hopefully, I could also offset some of the straw costs for this year against the lime. (I know out wintering would have been best but we're not at that stage yet)

Thanks in advance

I like lime but no more than 1/2 a ton at a time.

bendigeidfran · Dec 22, 2020

Fenwick said:
Thé brits and their hedges!

Dont do anything to thé hedges and thén they becomes a line of trees. Thé cattle prune back each side up to head height.

Thén every twenty years or so you got a stock of firewood.

Pretty standard over here. Never Seen Anyone trimming a hedge, except thé council.

Went on a school trip to paris and normandy, very few hedges or even a fence on the way to paris. First time i saw maize being grown.

Fenwick · Dec 22, 2020

bendigeidfran said:
Went on a school trip to paris and normandy, very few hedges or even a fence on the way to paris. First time i saw maize being grown.

There are huge parts of France (north, central and east) where they have ripped out every hedge, and trèe, removed thé livestock and planted céréals, sugar beet and maize.

Now they sufer from érosion, unemployment, and social désertification. A few péople made a lot of money in thé short term though.

Fenwick · Dec 22, 2020

GC74 said:
I like lime but no more than 1/2 a ton at a time.

same here, even less on Sandy soils

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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