"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
@holwellcourtfarm Are you still moving to NZ? Turn back :oops:

Ah, the old "lack of peer reviewed science" attack...

Doug Edmeades had form on that one........

As interviewer I think I'd have asked how much sponsorship or research funding he'd had from either fertiliser company and whether he was currently paid for any activity by either company. All clear conflicts of interest.
 
Last edited:

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
And that takes digging for answers, because the popular view is to use really short graze periods x really high SD to "lay lots of residue on the soil"
all this seemed to do was temporarily lower the pH and decrease the number of desirable plant species per ft².
Plant species need to be considered.

Some plants thrive under a hard graze, some don’t. Some recover fast, some don’t. Some are better with high traffic, others aren’t.

Cool season. Warm season. Grazing tolerant. Trample tolerant....

No matter how you graze you’re going to be discouraging something. It’s up to the individual to determine which plants they want around. In many situations with high density grazing you are seeing people work with cooler season, tame grasses. Those results are going to be completely different than warm season native plants.

If you are working with a field of Timothy and brome and ryegrass you can go hard and fast. If you have a field of blue grama grass and switchgrass you won’t be able to. You need to find which conditions your plants/the plants you want will be an increaser in and which they’ll be a decreaser. Just upping moisture and fertility and aiming for a pH doesn’t mean you’re going to get everything.
 

bendigeidfran

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cei newydd
How much "drought reserve" do we aim for - just a random question that cropped up in conversation today. Points for showing your workings.
No drought plan here, try to have about 4-6 weeks grazing in front. If it slows down i cull some ewes, sell fat at lighter weights or stores.
Most of the farm looks healthier in a dry summer than a wet one.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Plant species need to be considered.

Some plants thrive under a hard graze, some don’t. Some recover fast, some don’t. Some are better with high traffic, others aren’t.

Cool season. Warm season. Grazing tolerant. Trample tolerant....

No matter how you graze you’re going to be discouraging something. It’s up to the individual to determine which plants they want around. In many situations with high density grazing you are seeing people work with cooler season, tame grasses. Those results are going to be completely different than warm season native plants.

If you are working with a field of Timothy and brome and ryegrass you can go hard and fast. If you have a field of blue grama grass and switchgrass you won’t be able to. You need to find which conditions your plants/the plants you want will be an increaser in and which they’ll be a decreaser. Just upping moisture and fertility and aiming for a pH doesn’t mean you’re going to get everything.
we have, and still do, very tight grazing, on older or pp, the shock factor, by doing this, is the huge increase in stocking capacity, while still keeping the cattle in the correct body condition. This does lead to sward improvement, as well as teaching cattle to eat docks, a major plus. At the other end, we leave longer residuals, behind the dairy, because we discovered that shallow rooted ryegrass, dies quicker with tight grazing, in very dry conditions. Again, with more 'robust' grasses, herbs and clover, perhaps tight grazing, and longer recovery time, may well work as well. We would not try that with milkers though, to much income potentially lost ! Probably the answers become evident, as we find out which plants do well, on our farms, as we continue to experiment. Going back to tight grazing, with dry/young stock, the increased stocking rate is seriously greater, with no detriment to stock growth rates, but improves swards as well, something that could well be of interest to beef farmers, sheep would just breakout !
As l have said before, we are starting on a journey, against modern thinking, and we have no idea where it will end up.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
@holwellcourtfarm Are you still moving to NZ? Turn back :oops:

The force is strong in NZ.

I guess I (indirectly) work for the elephants in the room, ie the 2 major fert cooperatives supply maybe 90% of the fertiliser we spread or more, and they don't like pressure.
They definitely don't like the wrong limelight either, so they do cool stuff like sponsoring environmental awards and keep advising junk fertiliser recommendations via their field reps based on crude testing

there's this other concept that pastoral farming isn't very extractive which is also quite questionable, because so much is produced for export and cheaply, it is possibly the most unsustainable type of agriculture there is.

Until I'm comfortable with the input side of the equation, I have no desire to output much, it's actually quite difficult to justify the real cost of fertiliser on the soil and ecosystems, and mining makes little sense either - the only plus side is that you aren't putting more heavy metals etc onto the land with the tiny bit of phosphate that isn't instantly locked up and unavailable

the correct answer is to turn a blind eye, keep the pedal to the metal and just f**k the soil?
Or be relatively unpopular.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Plant species need to be considered.

Some plants thrive under a hard graze, some don’t. Some recover fast, some don’t. Some are better with high traffic, others aren’t.

Cool season. Warm season. Grazing tolerant. Trample tolerant....

No matter how you graze you’re going to be discouraging something. It’s up to the individual to determine which plants they want around. In many situations with high density grazing you are seeing people work with cooler season, tame grasses. Those results are going to be completely different than warm season native plants.

If you are working with a field of Timothy and brome and ryegrass you can go hard and fast. If you have a field of blue grama grass and switchgrass you won’t be able to. You need to find which conditions your plants/the plants you want will be an increaser in and which they’ll be a decreaser. Just upping moisture and fertility and aiming for a pH doesn’t mean you’re going to get everything.

Absolutely, with what we started with there are no real "go to" warm season perennials to consider. Really our big old orchardgrass offers the most, not only in production-for-stock but in litter production terms, we find by leaving it alone for longer it turns into a fresh litter "factory" that most other grasses can't match. And they're burly in the base, not a little delicate thing that can be killed.

Most of our native grasses are actually comparatively useless for grazing purposes as they didn't evolve with grazing, other than maybe a moa taking a bite on the way by.

The problem then is that a fast grazing system like we have is full of holes, with cool season grasses mixed with warm season legumes. I think we need to take a closer look at your speed of grazing than what's over the fence.

Thanks for your help, you probably don't realise how helpful your input is when it comes to redesigning a system to work under more difficult conditions than we regularly experience. 😇
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
That’s me. Full of input about what I’m not actually doing :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Everyone has their different ideals and goals for the holistic approach. One of mine is native grassland conservation. You can’t conserve native prairie if you’re only utilizing tame forages that can take a good beating. However native prairie has great bonuses. It’s a lot of warm season so can perform better in the dry summers here, it’s good stockpiled winter grazing, it has exceptional root mass, it’s endangered, it’s a great habitat for native critters, etc etc.

But it’s downfall is that not many species can take heavy grazing regularly and can require long rest periods.

So a prime recommendation here is have fields of both. Tame, cool season grasses that take off in the spring and offer good, early grazing. Then native fields of warm season forbes to transition to in the heat or even in the fall once dormant. You can sometimes get a second growth of cool season in fall to graze as well.

Much like rotating up and down the hills based on your rainfall and saturation and where you want to build soil and where you’re willing to punch out, having fields of opposing forages can offer advantages. They won’t necessarily work when all planted together as they’ll gradually phase into just what’s liking the conditions, but when planted in similar groupings but different pastures they can provide grazing in different conditions. Sometimes diversity isn’t about how many species are in one sward, it’s about how many types of swards you can have. Resilience doesn’t always come down to having one pasture that has at least one kind of plant that can survive anything, but having different pastures with different strengths and weaknesses.
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
That’s me. Full of input about what I’m not actually doing :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Everyone has their different ideals and goals for the holistic approach. One of mine is native grassland conservation. You can’t conserve native prairie if you’re only utilizing tame forages that can take a good beating. However native prairie has great bonuses. It’s a lot of warm season so can perform better in the dry summers here, it’s good stockpiled winter grazing, it has exceptional root mass, it’s endangered, it’s a great habitat for native critters, etc etc.

But it’s downfall is that not many species can take heavy grazing regularly and can require long rest periods.

So a prime recommendation here is have fields of both. Tame, cool season grasses that take off in the spring and offer good, early grazing. Then native fields of warm season forbes to transition to in the heat or even in the fall once dormant. You can sometimes get a second growth of cool season in fall to graze as well.

Much like rotating up and down the hills based on your rainfall and saturation and where you want to build soil and where you’re willing to punch out, having fields of opposing forages can offer advantages. They won’t necessarily work when all planted together as they’ll gradually phase into just what’s liking the conditions, but when planted in similar groupings but different pastures they can provide grazing in different conditions. Sometimes diversity isn’t about how many species are in one sward, it’s about how many types of swards you can have. Resilience doesn’t always come down to having one pasture that has at least one kind of plant that can survive anything, but having different pastures with different strengths and weaknesses.
I also think it's nice for the cows to have change, who wants the same meal every day
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
That’s me. Full of input about what I’m not actually doing :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Everyone has their different ideals and goals for the holistic approach. One of mine is native grassland conservation. You can’t conserve native prairie if you’re only utilizing tame forages that can take a good beating. However native prairie has great bonuses. It’s a lot of warm season so can perform better in the dry summers here, it’s good stockpiled winter grazing, it has exceptional root mass, it’s endangered, it’s a great habitat for native critters, etc etc.

But it’s downfall is that not many species can take heavy grazing regularly and can require long rest periods.

So a prime recommendation here is have fields of both. Tame, cool season grasses that take off in the spring and offer good, early grazing. Then native fields of warm season forbes to transition to in the heat or even in the fall once dormant. You can sometimes get a second growth of cool season in fall to graze as well.

Much like rotating up and down the hills based on your rainfall and saturation and where you want to build soil and where you’re willing to punch out, having fields of opposing forages can offer advantages. They won’t necessarily work when all planted together as they’ll gradually phase into just what’s liking the conditions, but when planted in similar groupings but different pastures they can provide grazing in different conditions. Sometimes diversity isn’t about how many species are in one sward, it’s about how many types of swards you can have. Resilience doesn’t always come down to having one pasture that has at least one kind of plant that can survive anything, but having different pastures with different strengths and weaknesses.
That's right. I'm quite glad that we subdivided across so many different pastures as they all seem to have something different to offer, and then of course you struggle to do the same thing with the grazing twice running, so the variation is there even if you're running with one major goal in mind. (y)
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
The force is strong in NZ.

I guess I (indirectly) work for the elephants in the room, ie the 2 major fert cooperatives supply maybe 90% of the fertiliser we spread or more, and they don't like pressure.
They definitely don't like the wrong limelight either, so they do cool stuff like sponsoring environmental awards and keep advising junk fertiliser recommendations via their field reps based on crude testing

there's this other concept that pastoral farming isn't very extractive which is also quite questionable, because so much is produced for export and cheaply, it is possibly the most unsustainable type of agriculture there is.

Until I'm comfortable with the input side of the equation, I have no desire to output much, it's actually quite difficult to justify the real cost of fertiliser on the soil and ecosystems, and mining makes little sense either - the only plus side is that you aren't putting more heavy metals etc onto the land with the tiny bit of phosphate that isn't instantly locked up and unavailable

the correct answer is to turn a blind eye, keep the pedal to the metal and just fudge the soil?
Or be relatively unpopular.
There must be more to this than meets the eye isn't there ?
can you really get a massive fine for promoting farming in a different way ? if so you better save some money so you can pay it when it comes .
or have I missed something ? apart from the corruption that is
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
so your saying there was nothing to eat them ? that can't be right can it
Pretty much. There were no ruminants, rodents, canines or felines pre- invasion/ settlement, only really birds and reptiles.
Some big birds though, eg the south island Moa had a browse height of around 12 feet / 3.6m, at least half that height at the shoulder (if they had shoulders of course) and seriously heavy birds with big legs. I have a moa stone (gizzard stone) somewhere, about the size of an apple

That's why introduced stuff (like deer, chamois, tahr, possums, mustolids etc) had such devastating impacts here - the flora had no need for defence systems because it had nothing to fend off, and no predators to keep them in check, as they did where they came from

It is quite a valuable thing to appreciate, that's why our soils (other than alluvial river-run soils) aren't really comparable to grassland biomes elsewhere, they are very thin and fragile by comparison, because they're formed by other means - mainly litter from trees and scrub as opposed to exudates from perennial grasses.

Understanding this, then, you can see how easy it is to change "soil" into what you want..It's the lowest on the scale of permanence because it is easy to build - if you have water.
By "copying the prairies" to an extent (keeping less browsing animals like sheep and goats, in favour of larger grazing animals) we can rapidly make our soil thicker than it was.
We can also lose it very quickly
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
There must be more to this than meets the eye isn't there ?
can you really get a massive fine for promoting farming in a different way ? if so you better save some money so you can pay it when it comes .
or have I missed something ? apart from the corruption that is
There isn't really much more to it. There's 90% producing diluted product that want to believe it's "best in the world" and 10% who want to do much better than that, and so there's always division amongst the ranks.

Probably no different to your own "better not more" motto, or the uncomfortable truths that @delilah puts forward on various threads - "don't threaten the gravy train of status-quo agriculture"

Many actually pride themselves on how many units they can sell off the land to overseas people, and in the next breath tell you how much they dislike the Chinese or whoever that pay their bills. They don't see the problem with that even if you spell it out.

I don't want to do better produce, so we've done our dash producing, however I know the way to superbly healthy stock and I'll use that to further our goals. f**k feeding the world IMO

However that's a real narrow minority view here, I even land myself in it on supposed "regenerative ag" groups online. I ask what is regenerative about producing commodity to specification for the benefit of unknown people and..... silence

A bit like that massive cock Edmeades on that video, his books didn't prepare him for the questions so it's all about diversion to save face

He doesn't know why it works, and meant to be the leading expert in soil science. He's literally blinded by the science of chemistry and doesn't know half of it

I know even less but I do watch cattle a lot
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
So your saying grass evolved with all the time that takes but nothing evolved to utilize it
No. Most of the land was either alpine plants, desert type - or wet forest with closed canopy - or tussock/scrub

very little grass or even room for grass (due to shade from dense rainforests) meant that the niche didn't really exist until fire was brought here maybe 800 years ago. In real time, that's not enough time for things to evolve

 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
There must be more to this than meets the eye isn't there ?
can you really get a massive fine for promoting farming in a different way ? if so you better save some money so you can pay it when it comes .
or have I missed something ? apart from the corruption that is
There isn't really much more to it. There's 90% producing diluted product that want to believe it's "best in the world" and 10% who want to do much better than that, and so there's always division amongst the ranks.

Probably no different to your own "better not more" motto, or the uncomfortable truths that @delilah puts forward on various threads - "don't threaten the gravy train of status-quo agriculture"

Many actually pride themselves on how many units they can sell off the land to overseas people, and in the next breath tell you how much they dislike the Chinese or whoever that pay their bills. They don't see the problem with that even if you spell it out.

I don't want to do better produce, so we've done our dash producing, however I know the way to superbly healthy stock and I'll use that to further our goals. fudge feeding the world IMO

However that's a real narrow minority view here, I even land myself in it on supposed "regenerative ag" groups online. I ask what is regenerative about producing commodity to specification for the benefit of unknown people and..... silence

A bit like that massive cock Edmeades on that video, his books didn't prepare him for the questions so it's all about diversion to save face

He doesn't know why it works, and meant to be the leading expert in soil science. He's literally blinded by the science of chemistry and doesn't know half of it

I know even less but I do watch cattle a lot
Edmeades seems a favoured scientist of the MPI as his work all supports the policies they've run for decades. In that video he seems to have forgotten that a basic tenet of science is to challenge what you believe as evidence emerges. Well the evidence emerging from farms is contrary to his understanding and he appears unable to follow the scientific response to that.

The government are just trying to stop anyone upsetting the status quo.
 

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