"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

ShooTa · Jun 20, 2021

welcome brad - as someone with a similar amount of stock and grazing its good to have comparisons -
as others have said graze away - sort out an IBC style watering system/barrelas on a trailer.
as for too long - its not, have put mine in equally tall stuff last 2 years.

GC74 · Jun 20, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
I feel bad that the first thing that jumped to mind was Rolf Harris

Humm....that's a long way (thank goodness) from the thoughts I had 1st one was supercars just isn't the same now Scott McLaughlin is in Indy cars.....the other was wonder what the methane emissions are from horses.

som farmer · Jun 20, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
I feel bad that the first thing that jumped to mind was Rolf Harris

he was an avid gardener, by all accounts, specialising in little bushes. He's out now, and according to the press, has already had formal warnings, about being in close proximity of schools, at break times, and end of day, yuk.

GC74 · Jun 20, 2021

Ed

ShooTa said:
welcome brad - as someone with a similar amount of stock and grazing its good to have comparisons -
as others have said graze away - sort out an IBC style watering system/barrelas on a trailer.
as for too long - its not, have put mine in equally tall stuff last 2 years.

how would suggest he graze it with sheep? My girls would just flatten it and whinge whenever I was in sight….

Treg · Jun 20, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
I feel bad that the first thing that jumped to mind was Rolf Harris

Not sure what emoji to put after that

Guleesh · Jun 20, 2021

Brad93 said:
Hi all, been following this thread for a while now but first time posting so go easy! Trying to adapt management to better reflect a more hollistic approach.
I’m currently sheep only on rented ground, small scale (80 lambing ewes this time with 40 shearlings following for next year) around a full time job so balancing time and money. Had an opportunity a while ago to purchase 14ac which is in the process of going through now. Like I say, small scale but starting somewhere and 2 min walk to current rented ground so works really well. It has taken a while to go through so had approximately 18 months of no grazing (previously it was set stocked with cows). It’s all old PP with plenty of hedge rows and tree lines. Hopefully a nice little “reset” in time for me coming to manage it, or that’s the theory!

Now my question is what to do with it to get going, standing crop of hay on currently and a lot more grass than the sheep have seen before. Will they go through it? I’ve always thought that sheep prefer a shorter grass cover. I’m debating with myself as to whether to:

a. Mow for hay to reduce length and leave until a decent growth for sheep comes back (I have a regular supply of haylage for winter anyway so this would purely be to resell)
b. Electric fence them onto it in small paddocks (only issue being water) but probably the ideal solution to reduce rental costs (per head per week basis currently)
c. Put cows in front of them (perhaps offer a neighbour a few days grazing) but leave plenty behind for them to follow on

More than happy for any suggestions!

Ive put a couple of pictures on for reference, hoping to get the ground in a couple of weeks so trying to formulate a plan now.

Trial A B and C?

And maybe a trial D, to leave some standing for much much longer... We grazed some pretty long stuff last summer and it worked out ok but I'm thinking that it may have been much more valuable just left and grazed much later on- a standing hay kind of thing. We did graze a bit like this and although it seemed almost wrong to allow so much of what grew to die in situ and be flattened by the autumn rain, there was a surprising amount of legumes and herby type stuff still green at the base, better still was how well the sheep did on it compared to the overly lush and wet green grass that the main lot were on at the time.

Trialling as many ways as possible is the best thing to do IMO, but the one thing I wouldn't do is have your grass baled and removed from the place. You're starting out in a good place with all that grass, The biggest obstacle for us was (and still is in plenty areas) getting the grass long enough for sheep to trample and 'waste' in the first place.

Brad93 · Jun 20, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
Hi Brad! Welcome along.

Not too sure what I'd do TBH, do you have a hay shed on either of your parcels?
Personally I'd make it into small bales, which not only suit your small mob sizes, but also easy to store... and just hang onto them as a reserve

heaps of feed there and although you could put the sheep in to selectively graze it, you will possibly end up with quite a bit of yorkshire fog because they will likely avoid it (it's not very tasty once it gets away), or bounce out of the paddocks if you try making them..
.. borrowing some cattle to tidy up could work also, saves the baling expense (it's different if you need it, but hard to justify carrying costs when you're starting out.)

I personally wouldn't sell hay unless I really needed to, as per above it represents quite a low-value product to sell. Better to keep it on the place if you can.

Cheers for posting! Good bunch on here

Thanks for the reply Pete! That was one of my main concerns that with the sheep there would be quite a bit of left over, plus keeping them in on electric isn’t always simple/ enjoyable!

Small bales would be the way I’d go, like you say easiest to manage especially without my own tractor. I might try and mow part of it and graze another, I suppose the worse that can happen is that I need to borrow some cows or top it to tidy up after the ewes?

@hendrebc thanks for your reply too! What would you do in terms or paddock sizing and timings between moves? Lambs are still with the ewes so have 80 plus their lambs in one mob currently.

I’ll post updates once I have them!

Kiwi Pete · Jun 20, 2021

GC74 said:
Ed

how would suggest he graze it with sheep? My girls would just flatten it and whinge whenever I was in sight….

Ours would struggle to utilise more than 1000-1200kgDM/ha before getting decidedly grizzly, mind you I haven't had many ewes on here, mainly hoggets

In 6000kgDM +, I reckon cattle are the story - even just for their saliva and general lack of fussiness when it comes to diet

Crofter64 · Jun 20, 2021

Brad93 said:
Hi all, been following this thread for a while now but first time posting so go easy! Trying to adapt management to better reflect a more hollistic approach.
I’m currently sheep only on rented ground, small scale (80 lambing ewes this time with 40 shearlings following for next year) around a full time job so balancing time and money. Had an opportunity a while ago to purchase 14ac which is in the process of going through now. Like I say, small scale but starting somewhere and 2 min walk to current rented ground so works really well. It has taken a while to go through so had approximately 18 months of no grazing (previously it was set stocked with cows). It’s all old PP with plenty of hedge rows and tree lines. Hopefully a nice little “reset” in time for me coming to manage it, or that’s the theory!

Now my question is what to do with it to get going, standing crop of hay on currently and a lot more grass than the sheep have seen before. Will they go through it? I’ve always thought that sheep prefer a shorter grass cover. I’m debating with myself as to whether to:

a. Mow for hay to reduce length and leave until a decent growth for sheep comes back (I have a regular supply of haylage for winter anyway so this would purely be to resell)
b. Electric fence them onto it in small paddocks (only issue being water) but probably the ideal solution to reduce rental costs (per head per week basis currently)
c. Put cows in front of them (perhaps offer a neighbour a few days grazing) but leave plenty behind for them to follow on

More than happy for any suggestions!

Ive put a couple of pictures on for reference, hoping to get the ground in a couple of weeks so trying to formulate a plan now.

welcome Brad. I have been putting my sheep into covers that high this year . I am doing the rounds of paddocks very slowly as we have had a very dry spring. The sheep are doing well and the grass growing behind them is a better height. I suppose you could mow a couple of acres that they won’t be going into till August. I was being very cautious from the start of this year’s grazing and am happy to have anything ahead of me. I admit water is an issue. I pick up used 15 liter dip containers which are a managable weight when full of water and drive them to where the sheep are. I can place them in advance and on most days 33 ewes/lambs go through 2 so doable. You would require a bigger system, of course.

Kiwi Pete · Jun 20, 2021

Brad93 said:
Thanks for the reply Pete! That was one of my main concerns that with the sheep there would be quite a bit of left over, plus keeping them in on electric isn’t always simple/ enjoyable!

Small bales would be the way I’d go, like you say easiest to manage especially without my own tractor. I might try and mow part of it and graze another, I suppose the worse that can happen is that I need to borrow some cows or top it to tidy up after the ewes?

@hendrebc thanks for your reply too! What would you do in terms or paddock sizing and timings between moves? Lambs are still with the ewes so have 80 plus their lambs in one mob currently.

I’ll post updates once I have them!

No worries!

In my opinion, having really long grass + sheep + temp electric fences.... to put it nicely, it's a shitshow

I got the hay mower out this year just to cut roads across the prairie for the fences to run unimpeded. And that's a 25 joule mains unit running 100ac, fine on a dry day through tall grass but..... yeah... if you want sheep to perform, you really need to have a good leaf:stem ratio.
The fast way to get your leaf:stem ratio back is either with cattle or a mower, really

Paddock sizing is always an interesting discussion..

I'd start with allocating 2% of your farm per day as a really rough starting point

you can soon dial it in from there.
Put simply, a 50 day rotation after the grass has gone beserk, 1% or 100 days as soon as you think you can do that, and 4% (or 25 days) in the springtime would suit us here with sheep only

The finer points, well, depends how much time you want to fuss about with electric fences, the best advice is just "start" things moving

Kiwi Pete · Jun 20, 2021

Speaking of "moving", I reckon our grass is growing faster at the winter solstice than it was at the equinox.

(Lovely stuff, rain, when you want it.)

This is halfway around the loop, that is they were in the cells across from where they are here, 6 weeks ago. Just tight enough really

Samcowman · Jun 20, 2021

som farmer said:
the best keep we ever had for hfrs, free as well, was on chalkland, on a serious horse stud, each mare and foal had their own paddocks, so, horse/foal, for 6 days, hfrs for 6 days, then topped. That ground never saw fert, or a reseed, was immaculate, 1 groom per mare, hand shears for weeds around the post and rail fencing, absolutely nothing out of place, last year we had it, the 12 foals av £800,000 each - l did say serious. Hfrs grew as if they were on ad-lib cake, they didn't have anything other than a min bucket. There were disadvantages, having got used to post and rail fencing, they didn't take a lot of notice of barbed wire, and they were actually too quiet, 1 person could move them over large, 60ac+ fields, they followed in a line, behind him, fantastic to watch, but incredibly awkward to move them here. The keep was through a friend, who lost it, unfortunately. Those hfrs easily did 1kg+/day, and came back better than the ones here, on leys + 1kg conc. So that knocks a few seed reps claims, on the head. We were discouraged from seeing the hfrs, while they were there, so didn't actually work out what grasses were there, wild plantain, and wild clover were present, and nettles, thistles and docks, were conspicuous by their absence. Interesting and informative, and showing old pp, can be quite productive.

Very interesting you note the performance with the heifers. I’m just reading Peter Andrews book where he did a study tour and found and proved on his own farm that a his diversity in the pasture made better racehorses.

Samcowman · Jun 20, 2021

Kiwi Pete · Jun 20, 2021

Samcowman said:
View attachment 968772

You know he's right

som farmer · Jun 20, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
No worries!

In my opinion, having really long grass + sheep + temp electric fences.... to put it nicely, it's a shitshow

I got the hay mower out this year just to cut roads across the prairie for the fences to run unimpeded. And that's a 25 joule mains unit running 100ac, fine on a dry day through tall grass but..... yeah... if you want sheep to perform, you really need to have a good leaf:stem ratio.
The fast way to get your leaf:stem ratio back is either with cattle or a mower, really

Paddock sizing is always an interesting discussion..

I'd start with allocating 2% of your farm per day as a really rough starting point you can soon dial it in from there.
Put simply, a 50 day rotation after the grass has gone beserk, 1% or 100 days as soon as you think you can do that, and 4% (or 25 days) in the springtime would suit us here with sheep only

The finer points, well, depends how much time you want to fuss about with electric fences, the best advice is just "start" things moving

any sheep are shitshow, about bearable if they stay in. As soon as l got the farm sheep prooffed, sold them, for dairy cows.
P/P, evolved over years, or true pp did, todays is classed as being grass, for about 5 years continuous grass. In logical line of thought, you would have bushy plants for browsers -goats, long grass for grazers -cows, and short stuff for the nibblers -sheep, add the weeds for roughage. For our static farms, where animals cannot migrate around, and get everything at the right stage, and keep the internal worms down, we have to get close to that, as we can, which with rotational grazing, longer recovery times, we inch closer to. However, stock farmers, have to go to a level, where we need to select grasses, that match the type of stock to graze them, this now becomes reseeding, with varieties we think will suit our animal type best, usually prg and w/clover. How long before the wheel turns back to more diverse mixes.
Last week, getting jumpy over grass growth, as no rain, pre-mowing, and stopping cutting excess grass for bales, pleased to announce, we have had some decent rain, and more to come, so now that policy is in reverse, and grass that was beginning to stress, and head, will now have to be quickly grazed, and reset. Whoever said farming was dull and boring, and only for the 'not so bright'. Something l have never agreed with.
Just read samcowmans photo, puts what l was getting at, a damn sight better than l did

Samcowman · Jun 20, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
You know he's right

Definitely our Calves always seem to do best on the blocks that are either SSSI (site of special scientific interest) which is the steep land on the edge of Salisbury Plain or on HLS next to it. Diversity there is high and no fertiliser inputs.

som farmer · Jun 20, 2021

Samcowman said:
Definitely our Calves always seem to do best on the blocks that are either SSSI (site of special scientific interest) which is the steep land on the edge of Salisbury Plain or on HLS next to it. Diversity there is high and no fertiliser inputs.

the only drawback, with that, and organic, you can't feed global population, by every body going down that route, but absolutely spot on. We now have 55 acres of pp, some in orchards, some in a 'park', cattle shine on it, and certain you can get excellent growth rates on it, so says he, who as a lad, was determined to plough every acre here, and got to about 95%. As one ages, you realise you don't actually much at all.

Samcowman · Jun 20, 2021

som farmer said:
the only drawback, with that, and organic, you can't feed global population, by every body going down that route, but absolutely spot on. We now have 55 acres of pp, some in orchards, some in a 'park', cattle shine on it, and certain you can get excellent growth rates on it, so says he, who as a lad, was determined to plough every acre here, and got to about 95%. As one ages, you realise you don't actually much at all.

I’m not sure about the productivity angle on this block. Running the same number of cows and calves there as before the landlord put it into hls and we were using fert then albeit not at a high rate. We did use to cut 2 of the fields for silage that are now grazed but now we cut 2 others that aren’t in hls that used to be grazed they are about half the size of the previous cut ones.
The grazing management has changed now to a loose rotation going on the existing fields rather than set stocked. There could be more gains made by using electric fence but for the business as a whole it’s better to use my time doing electric elsewhere.

holwellcourtfarm · Jun 20, 2021

som farmer said:
the only drawback, with that, and organic, you can't feed global population, by every body going down that route

But it's very hard these days to run a profitable farm business and have any quality of life by seeking to "feed global population". Our job is to look after our farms and make a living profit. Feeding the world is someone else's problem.

som farmer · Jun 20, 2021

but if every body did, we would have to hire armed security to keep the starving people from stealing it !
l am perfectly happy on our little patch, and the only interest in global population, is to hope they eat more, and make prices rise. Certain many farmers enjoy being on that hamster wheel, which is fine, till they want to get off, not so enjoyable then. Gave up thinking l could change the world ages ago. As long as we can have a sensible lifestyle, bills get paid, and still enjoy it

The only bit l don't like is the weather ! Though very thankful for what we have just had, rain in quantity.

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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