- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
I really MUST treat myself to a penetrometer for Xmas ready for farm hunting......
"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..
- Thread starter Kiwi Pete
- Start date
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
You can make quite a reasonable one yourself - the key IMO is that the tip is ever-so-slightly larger diameter than the probe itself, otherwise it functions more like a moisture probe (a-la what @Farmer Roy uses at his place)I really MUST treat myself to a penetrometer for Xmas ready for farm hunting......
when you predominantly have soil moisture, the friction (or what dirtbikers would call stiction, referring to bike forks) doesn't really give a true feeling for what is there.
However if your probe tip is a mm or two larger than the shaft you can feel what is happening at the end, much better
- Location
- Essex
We never put N on grassland.
- Location
- somerset
we are always on the look out for pans, and they don't necessarily occur, where you think, even stone brash can respond well to being s/s. Even in fields, it can vary. Here, the sandier the soil, the greater the risk. We 'missed' a pan, in a field, in a d/d case, 1st grazing, bit light, 2nd,
AMG 90%, hole dug, 5ins down, solid. We s/s 15ins, every 12ins, and when ploughed, it was still hard to plough.
The main point to realise, is, if you don't look, you don't know, is that 'poor' patch, just poor, or is their a reason. Modern machinery, is not only large, it's heavy, to heavy really, and take note of tyres, super singles, beloved by contractors, and some farmers, are horrendous, and plenty never even think about the soil damage, they do.
So, my advice is, if you have a poor bit of ground, dig a hole, see what's there, count the worms, how far do the roots go down, how easily does the spade go in, etc. That should be done, before deciding on a reseed, otherwise, you could be wasting your money, and, spades don't cost a lot.
AMG 90%, hole dug, 5ins down, solid. We s/s 15ins, every 12ins, and when ploughed, it was still hard to plough.
The main point to realise, is, if you don't look, you don't know, is that 'poor' patch, just poor, or is their a reason. Modern machinery, is not only large, it's heavy, to heavy really, and take note of tyres, super singles, beloved by contractors, and some farmers, are horrendous, and plenty never even think about the soil damage, they do.
So, my advice is, if you have a poor bit of ground, dig a hole, see what's there, count the worms, how far do the roots go down, how easily does the spade go in, etc. That should be done, before deciding on a reseed, otherwise, you could be wasting your money, and, spades don't cost a lot.
- Location
- somerset
l wish we didn't, and seriously hope we can get to a stage, where we dont have to.
A lot depends on what you use your grass for, we are dairy, and need quantity and quality, especially early spring. And it early spring where we 'fail' without N, to get the early growth, that we need.
Incentive is certainly there, N would cost £20k more here, this year, to last, ouch, that sort of money figure, will not only effect the UK, but it reflects Global use as well, N is not only expensive, it's in very short supply. The next 2 years, will certainly be interesting, l believe the global food supply, is only just keeping up, with demand, fert may be the final straw, to tip it over, into shortages. Great for farmers, but that shortage, has to be overcome, or, more will starve, simple as that. Here, in the 'rich' west, we wont go hungry, the choice of food, will probably shrink, and prices will rise, good for farmers, food is to cheap,
The climate change lobby, will welcome the curtailment of N, and it is rather toxic, but they stop there, and assume success. Unless N comes down in price, the global result, will definitely not be 'green', people have to live, with out fert, soils will rapidly deuterate, resulting, in some countries, at desertification, and starvation. New 'virgin' land, without an alternative to fert, will soon reduce output, to keep production up, forests could be felled, etc. And howls of protest, from 'greens' will have no effect, simply because people need to eat.
So, the meteoric rise, in fert price, will have a very negative effect, globally. However, there are alternatives, they have fallen out of fashion, regen looks to bring them back, and they are pretty simple, easy things to do, and those using them, will reap the rewards.
But, in a battle between food versus climate, food will always win. And we should take that, on board, and realise, food will never be unaffordable, food riots, starvation etc, will ensure that, the % of household spend, on food, will rise though, and that, is good news, for farmers.
sounds goodHowever if your probe tip is a mm or two larger than the shaft you can feel what is happening at the end, much better
also good for finding mole runsYou can make quite a reasonable one yourself - the key IMO is that the tip is ever-so-slightly larger diameter than the probe itself, otherwise it functions more like a moisture probe (a-la what @Farmer Roy uses at his place)
when you predominantly have soil moisture, the friction (or what dirtbikers would call stiction, referring to bike forks) doesn't really give a true feeling for what is there.
However if your probe tip is a mm or two larger than the shaft you can feel what is happening at the end, much better
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
perfect design
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I just slapped a bit of weld on and ground it down to a bullet shape, it would be good for that but we have no moles here
they are a sign of healthy land and also a nuisance, we have enough
- Location
- somerset
friends bought an old terraced house, that at one time, had been a chapel, and their garden had been a graveyard, you could easily push a thin bar, down 6ft, not sure why .......... never hit any wood resistance though.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Having a farm that is no longer reliant on these inputs is only as real as you guys seeing that as a possibility - you get that, eh?
If you don't really believe that it applies to you or 'can' apply or 'might' then it really probably just won't... life is like that, everywhere you look at it
We actually have to own that 'the land is doing what it's doing because of how it's been managed', but to have the possibility there that it can still operate without (or with much much lower/less frequent) nitrogen inputs and be MORE profitable or just as profitable but MORE fun - that possibility has to be there for you?
if that isn't there then there is probably something hiding in the background that's acting as a barrier, like the need to feed the world or something, I'd just go looking for what that is that's in the way and fire a few testing questions at it
To my way of thinking the path to having more better grass through the summer dry period we now know to expect; is stop doing anything that encourages too-rapid recovery in the spring and adjust to this reality.
I think in a battle of food vs climate change, water will end up deciding what sinks and swims in grass-farming, no matter what is getting sold to pay the bills
I think for a lot of farmers here, the thing hiding in the background is the need to pay the rent/ mortgage/ overdraft. Businesses plans have been made based on high yields/ productivity. As long as N gives a short term benefit in productivity, some will continue to use it, but these prices will have people thinking very hard about it.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Yep, I absolutely get that 
we pay about £160/acre here to cover the interest and about the same again in repayments to bring that back in time
if we spent some money to make sure we had a drought long enough to feed out a few bales we baled up to make the extra drought... it seems like a weird way to get us where we want to go
I actually think "not looking bad" is a major stopper, but I don't want to put words in people's mouths, science is honest discovery
we pay about £160/acre here to cover the interest and about the same again in repayments to bring that back in timeif we spent some money to make sure we had a drought long enough to feed out a few bales we baled up to make the extra drought... it seems like a weird way to get us where we want to go
I actually think "not looking bad" is a major stopper, but I don't want to put words in people's mouths, science is honest discovery
Last edited:
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
- Location
- somerset
so much is so far different, to what we were 'taught' and practiced, for many years, changing how we go forward, is hard to do, without 'comparing' it, to what we did.Yep, I absolutely get that
if we spent some money to make sure we had a drought long enough to feed out a few bales we baled up to make the extra drought... it seems like a weird way to get us where we want to go
I actually think "not looking bad" is a major stopper, but I don't want to put words in people's mouths, science is honest discovery
There is not huge profits in farming, so with bills to pay, changing to the 'unknown' is quite a large step. Caution is the word ! Having started that change, and for us, trying to find a system that works, from the 'normal' that failed, it is difficult not to look back, and cost out, using earlier figures. The most important bit, is actually changing, it's a leap of faith. Once changed, it is better to slowly - caution - change the whole system, as and when you are comfortable.
Farming is a vibrant business, that is more able, and prepared, to change, than many many other businesses, at the same time, we have a built in caution mode.
Sorry I don't think that's quite right, you need to look at DEFRA’s costings, Organic farms are far more profitable, so anyone developing a business plan should be starting from there & asking why.
It's all about mindset and preconceptions, @som farmer s point about needing N for spring grass, I would say spring grass is about forward planning not N.
Quite agree about being cautious, although sometimes you have to push boundaries.
forward planning in what way ?
Dirty water / FYM in the Autumn, close out fields in Autumn for early bite in the spring, giving them plenty of rest.
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
The first response to shortage SHOULD be to stop as much wastage as possible.
Restaraunts waste huge amounts (see how much is left on many folks plates when the table is cleared).
Shops waste quite a bit (I've seen a whole shelf of double cream on the "cheap shelf" several times recently, about to go out of date)
Supermarket specs cause lots of produce to be "graded out" and composted or ploughed back in.