The war in Ukraine...

Danllan · Apr 21, 2022

Swarfmonkey said:
Anyone who thinks giving the Ukrainians a weapon system like the PzH 2000 is a good idea needs a swift punch to the throat. It would take half a year to train the crews to a standard where they'd be more likely to drop rounds on the intended target than drop them on their own side and it would take even longer to train the Ukrainian equivalent of REME to maintain them properly.

It'd be quicker (and most likely a whole lot cheaper) to scour the international market for more of the kit they already have, such as Gvozdika, Pion, and Giatsint-s.

See below...

JohnGalway said:
I dislike that argument. Ukraine is looking for usable weapons now as the war is happening now, they are getting some, not nearly enough. They're also looking for more advanced Western weapons - and to be trained upon them. At the start of the war some were saying well no point in giving them X because it'll take two months to train them, and yet, here we are, two months later, war still happening. I don't believe this will be a short war. putrid may "declare victory" by "liberating Donbas" and offer a ceasefire, but anyone who think's that ends this war is a fool. The only end is a russian defeat.

Yes, but... both arguments have some merit, yet pragmatism has to triumph, and that means it will be best to supply them with as many possible of what they can use immediately.

John, it takes a few days to achieve competence on some kit, a few weeks on others, and months on some. There really is no way around this, sure a wee bit might be shaved off here and there, but reality requires instant fixes at the moment and that just means getting every bit of familiar kit to them we can, along with lots of our own stuff that can be used with minimal training.

However... there is a very good chance that this will grind on for far longer than many currently think. In fact I think that, without a complete allied embargo on Russian oil and gas, this will be the case, certainly into next Winter and probably well into next year. Disappointingly, I can't see a full embargo happening, so I can't see any harm in taking some Ukrainians and training them on other kit, big stuff, MDS*, even aircraft, both as a morale / propaganda booster for Ukraine, and to provide a bit of long-term insurance too.

But let's not kid ourselves it will not be more than that except in the long-term.

*MDS would be my first choice of these, with a first-rate system we could see a massive increase in security for Ukrainian cities.

Swarfmonkey · Apr 21, 2022

JohnGalway said:
I dislike that argument. Ukraine is looking for usable weapons now as the war is happening now, they are getting some, not nearly enough. They're also looking for more advanced Western weapons - and to be trained upon them. At the start of the war some were saying well no point in giving them X because it'll take two months to train them, and yet, here we are, two months later, war still happening. I don't believe this will be a short war. putrid may "declare victory" by "liberating Donbas" and offer a ceasefire, but anyone who think's that ends this war is a fool. The only end is a russian defeat.

There's a huge difference between training personnel to use a comparatively simple bit of kit like NLAW, AT4, or Panzerfaust 3 (simple to use, that is), and training them to use, and maintain, a system like PzH 2000.

Having something that'll do the job adequately ASAP is of far more importance than having something all-singing and all-dancing a year down the line when you're in the position that the Ukrainians are.

Danllan · Apr 21, 2022

Swarfmonkey said:
There's a huge difference between training personnel to use a comparatively simple bit of kit like NLAW, AT4, or Panzerfaust 3 (simple to use, that is), and training them to use, and maintain, a system like PzH 2000.

Having something that'll do the job adequately ASAP is of far more importance than having something all-singing and all-dancing a year down the line when you're in the position that the Ukrainians are.

True enough, but I can fully understand the irritation felt by many that not enough is being done / given - because it isn't.

I'm still not certain of its veracity, but there's the recent story doing the rounds that Germany wouldn't let some APCs go to Ukraine, all sorts of excuses given, then they turn out to have been offered to Greece at a bargain price... what I read seems credible.

And there are loads more like it, from all over the place; I think we are doing alright, but there are still large numbers of things we have laid up, that we don't need, and - most importantly - could be used pretty much immediately.

We'll see...

ollie989898 · Apr 21, 2022

Danllan said:
True enough, but I can fully understand the irritation felt by many that not enough is being done / given - because it isn't.

I'm still not certain of its veracity, but there's the recent story doing the rounds that Germany wouldn't let some APCs go to Ukraine, all sorts of excuses given, then they turn out to have been offered to Greece at a bargain price... what I read seems credible.

And there are loads more like it, from all over the place; I think we are doing alright, but there are still large numbers of things we have laid up, that we don't need, and - most importantly - could be used pretty much immediately.

We'll see...

What happened to all the vehicles we bought and sent to Afghanistan/Iraq? Some of them are not suitable for other theatres I thought?

renewablejohn · Apr 21, 2022

its yourself said:
Seems Ukraine now has 20 more operational aircraft.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516851027890290691

What we really could do with is Finland to become part of Nato and then insist that Vyborg is returned to Finland. Once that happens a word in the right ear at Rolls Royce and the German chancellor may find Russian gas is in short supply.

Muck Spreader · Apr 21, 2022

Not something I though you would ever need in a JD, bulletproof vests. But if you are drilling only 15/20 miles from the frontline.

czechmate · Apr 21, 2022

Wife says Putin has called off the attack on the steel works

Red Fred · Apr 21, 2022

czechmate said:
Wife says Putin has called off the attack on the steel works

The BBC said he considers himself in control of the city and the soldiers in the steel works will be isolated and starved out.

czechmate · Apr 21, 2022

Red Fred said:
The BBC said he considers himself in control of the city and the soldiers in the steel works will be isolated and starved out.

yep, he is a kind old soul

JohnGalway · Apr 21, 2022

Danllan said:
See below...

Yes, but... both arguments have some merit, yet pragmatism has to triumph, and that means it will be best to supply them with as many possible of what they can use immediately.

John, it takes a few days to achieve competence on some kit, a few weeks on others, and months on some. There really is no way around this, sure a wee bit might be shaved off here and there, but reality requires instant fixes at the moment and that just means getting every bit of familiar kit to them we can, along with lots of our own stuff that can be used with minimal training.

However... there is a very good chance that this will grind on for far longer than many currently think. In fact I think that, without a complete allied embargo on Russian oil and gas, this will be the case, certainly into next Winter and probably well into next year. Disappointingly, I can't see a full embargo happening, so I can't see any harm in taking some Ukrainians and training them on other kit, big stuff, MDS*, even aircraft, both as a morale / propaganda booster for Ukraine, and to provide a bit of long-term insurance too.

But let's not kid ourselves it will not be more than that except in the long-term.

*MDS would be my first choice of these, with a first-rate system we could see a massive increase in security for Ukrainian cities.

Swarfmonkey said:
There's a huge difference between training personnel to use a comparatively simple bit of kit like NLAW, AT4, or Panzerfaust 3 (simple to use, that is), and training them to use, and maintain, a system like PzH 2000.

Having something that'll do the job adequately ASAP is of far more importance than having something all-singing and all-dancing a year down the line when you're in the position that the Ukrainians are.

You're both taking my point up wrong. Send what Ukraine can use now, today.

The current situation is supply of familiar soviet/russian weapon systems and easy to use western systems to the Ukrainians.

There are problems, the first being the volume is too small, some countries like Hungary won't send any arms. This is a war of attrition, lots of ammo will be getting used. The west will only have a finite supply of russian/soviet gear. The rest of the world may not be so forthcoming in opening their arsenals of soviet tat.

To address western technology specifically. The expectation in some quarters was of Ukraine folding in days, defection of large parts of their army etc. When it became obvious this wasn't going to happen, you know around day two/three of the war, the west prevaricated. Honestly, the phrase that entered my head earlier was that the Ukrainians were being treated like monkeys. How could they learn these systems, so why bother. The ceasefire brigade often cheer lead lines like it.

Had the west pulled it's hypocritical finger out and began training Ukrainian forces on western systems we'd be well on the way to introducing more weapons types to send the orcs home or to hell. Either is fine by me. But no, apart from some very small steps like US artillery and the stuff the Dutch is sending we're largely still at day dot. This is a problem. Every opportunity that is shunned is a step closer to keeping that butcher in with a chance to drag something he can call a win out of this conflict, and we're way too close to that point for my liking.

Either Slovakia or Czechia has offered to repair Ukrainian armour, on Slovakian/Czech soil. Honestly, the rest need to stop being so fúcking petrified of this barstewards shadow and get on with the business of winning this war quickly.

renewablejohn · Apr 21, 2022

You can always rely on China

China buys cheap Russian coking coal as world shuns Moscow

China more than doubled imports of steel-making coal from Russia in March.

www.mining.com

Martin Holden · Apr 21, 2022

Henarar said:
One long holiday for Devon farmers isn't it

They also put the jam and cream on cream teas the wrong way round an’ all!

BrianV · Apr 21, 2022

Martin Holden said:
They also put the Jan and cream on cream teas the wrong way round an’ all!

Marmalade then butter on toast as well in Cornwall I suppose, tis a long way from civilisation after all?

czechmate · Apr 21, 2022

JohnGalway said:
You're both taking my point up wrong. Send what Ukraine can use now, today.

The current situation is supply of familiar soviet/russian weapon systems and easy to use western systems to the Ukrainians.

There are problems, the first being the volume is too small, some countries like Hungary won't send any arms. This is a war of attrition, lots of ammo will be getting used. The west will only have a finite supply of russian/soviet gear. The rest of the world may not be so forthcoming in opening their arsenals of soviet tat.

To address western technology specifically. The expectation in some quarters was of Ukraine folding in days, defection of large parts of their army etc. When it became obvious this wasn't going to happen, you know around day two/three of the war, the west prevaricated. Honestly, the phrase that entered my head earlier was that the Ukrainians were being treated like monkeys. How could they learn these systems, so why bother. The ceasefire brigade often cheer lead lines like it.

Had the west pulled it's hypocritical finger out and began training Ukrainian forces on western systems we'd be well on the way to introducing more weapons types to send the orcs home or to hell. Either is fine by me. But no, apart from some very small steps like US artillery and the stuff the Dutch is sending we're largely still at day dot. This is a problem. Every opportunity that is shunned is a step closer to keeping that butcher in with a chance to drag something he can call a win out of this conflict, and we're way too close to that point for my liking.

Either Slovakia or Czechia has offered to repair Ukrainian armour, on Slovakian/Czech soil. Honestly, the rest need to stop being so fúcking petrified of this barstewards shadow and get on with the business of winning this war quickly.

it’s both, not either

its yourself · Apr 21, 2022

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517155069375909897

Martin Holden · Apr 21, 2022

BrianV said:
Marmalade then butter on toast as well in Cornwall I suppose, tis a long way from civilisation after all?

JohnGalway · Apr 21, 2022

czechmate said:
it’s both, not either

That you Stannis?

Martin Holden · Apr 21, 2022

Perhaps we all require elocution lessons and also dicktion lessons!! See what I did there???

czechmate · Apr 21, 2022

Martin Holden said:
Perhaps we all require elocution lessons and also dicktion lessons!! See what I did there???

no

Looks fine to me

arcobob · Apr 21, 2022

Martin Holden said:
Perhaps we all require elocution lessons and also dicktion lessons!! See what I did there???

You are rude

The war in Ukraine...

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page