"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

som farmer · Jun 15, 2022

holwellcourtfarm said:
I finished baling hay here for a neighbour at 18:30 and we both say in the shade of his tractor "chewing the fat" about Dad's life, farming and the state of society. We commented on the fact we'd just take and baled 30 acres of hay with about £30k total value in machinery ( 2 tractors, a baler and a rake). Most "modern" farms would have that tied up in just the baler and it wouldn't have done the job any better or cheaper, just cost more!

They probably wouldn't feel able to sit and chat after either, they'd have to "push on because time is money you know"

a new bale and wrap baler is around £56k,
just bought, and delivered after 5 months wait, a 6 rota tedder, £4500
mowers could be any price, depending on what you want
rakes, again its what you want
then tractors
all adds up to a massive sum.
But that sum can be radically cut back, by using 2nd hand kit.
I really don't know if we should run our own kit, or use contractors more. We don't own a baler, but finding someone to bale your grass/hay, is getting harder, too many have stopped, simply not enough in the job, to make it worthwhile.
We just run basic kit, mower, tedder, decent trailor, and an up to date tractor, that's for hay/grass.
We have a vaderstaat drill, 2nd hand, we can use for all types of seeding, - well worth the money, a power harrow, subsoiler, and aerator, sums up our kit.
Back in the day, we did everything in house, combining to hedge trimming, but we also had the labour to do that.
Does owning a machine, to do a job yourself, cover the cost of that machine, plus labour, end up any cheaper than using a contractor ? Convenience ?
our accountants view is simple, 'we do the accounts of loads of contractors, they aren't making any money, why do you think you can do it cheaper ?'
bit of musing, on a subject, l often ponder over, and never come to a conclusive answer.

awkward · Jun 15, 2022

som farmer said:
a new bale and wrap baler is around £56k,
just bought, and delivered after 5 months wait, a 6 rota tedder, £4500
mowers could be any price, depending on what you want
rakes, again its what you want
then tractors
all adds up to a massive sum.
But that sum can be radically cut back, by using 2nd hand kit.
I really don't know if we should run our own kit, or use contractors more. We don't own a baler, but finding someone to bale your grass/hay, is getting harder, too many have stopped, simply not enough in the job, to make it worthwhile.
We just run basic kit, mower, tedder, decent trailor, and an up to date tractor, that's for hay/grass.
We have a vaderstaat drill, 2nd hand, we can use for all types of seeding, - well worth the money, a power harrow, subsoiler, and aerator, sums up our kit.
Back in the day, we did everything in house, combining to hedge trimming, but we also had the labour to do that.
Does owning a machine, to do a job yourself, cover the cost of that machine, plus labour, end up any cheaper than using a contractor ? Convenience ?
our accountants view is simple, 'we do the accounts of loads of contractors, they aren't making any money, why do you think you can do it cheaper ?'
bit of musing, on a subject, l often ponder over, and never come to a conclusive answer.

Fusion here is about €120000 including vat. Tractor to drive it another 120 easy

Guleesh · Jun 15, 2022

som farmer said:
a new bale and wrap baler is around £56k,
just bought, and delivered after 5 months wait, a 6 rota tedder, £4500
mowers could be any price, depending on what you want
rakes, again its what you want
then tractors
all adds up to a massive sum.
But that sum can be radically cut back, by using 2nd hand kit.
I really don't know if we should run our own kit, or use contractors more. We don't own a baler, but finding someone to bale your grass/hay, is getting harder, too many have stopped, simply not enough in the job, to make it worthwhile.
We just run basic kit, mower, tedder, decent trailor, and an up to date tractor, that's for hay/grass.
We have a vaderstaat drill, 2nd hand, we can use for all types of seeding, - well worth the money, a power harrow, subsoiler, and aerator, sums up our kit.
Back in the day, we did everything in house, combining to hedge trimming, but we also had the labour to do that.
Does owning a machine, to do a job yourself, cover the cost of that machine, plus labour, end up any cheaper than using a contractor ? Convenience ?
our accountants view is simple, 'we do the accounts of loads of contractors, they aren't making any money, why do you think you can do it cheaper ?'
bit of musing, on a subject, l often ponder over, and never come to a conclusive answer.

I reckon control of timing is the main advantage of owning your own kit. Contractors will naturally want do their own stuff in the most favourable conditions.

Kiwi Pete · Jun 15, 2022

Haha, yep, then it is you fixing that breakdown instead of a contractor

Not many folks roll their own down here TBH.

The odd dairy that makes over a couple of thousand a year will have their kit, otherwise the contractors usually handle it.
Mainly because of catchy weather, get a couple of Fusions gobbling up rows and you cover ground quickly

we have a contractor culture down here

som farmer · Jun 15, 2022

Guleesh said:
I reckon control of timing is the main advantage of owning your own kit. Contractors will naturally want do their own stuff in the most favourable conditions.

agreed, its the price of the kit, and labour, that stops us now.
most important thing now, is keeping the contractor happy, ours has dropped some farms, who still owed last years bill, and l don't blame him, this years costs will be more than last years.
several that baled and wrapped, last few years, have stopped. Heard bale/wrap, squares at £20, rounds at £14, but that's only hearsay. We have 'repaired' an older pit, 3cube concrete, and a few bits and pieces, cheaper than baling a lot. Got some hay down, didn't ask the price for that, had to be done.
The £56k, was to change, only remembered that, when someone posted £120,000, for new, that's a lot of money, got to bale a huge amount to justify that.
Quite happy to take the sheet, on/off the pit, our contractor quite happy to do 15 to 20acres, very local, doesn't need a big team.

the pit repair, was base, concrete laid in the 60's at 4inch, and been replaced several times, the back half, has perfect concrete, laid in 1955, 3ins thick, and we have same concrete, elsewhere, subjected to all lorries, tractors etc, and still fine, they obviously knew how to make it last !

Fenwick · Jun 15, 2022

Been trying to concentrate on animal performance while continuing thé nonselective grazing.

Thé lady few calves have been looking acceptable.

Around 1.2kgs daily gain on average. On a completely grass fed total grazing systèm.

A mate was delivering his calves at thé same time so we got to compare systèms.

Thé Hay is done. Excellent conditions for it. 4.4 tonnes dm per ha on thé 3 year leys . So thats nice.

I sowed a New multispecies ley last autumn under cover of oats and radish. 122 bales for 4 ha. Contracters had a job to cut it though. And i had a rough Time with thé rake.

It will be interesting to sée thé analysis.

@som farmer I think we can produce well enough on an organic systèm.

Samcowman · Jun 15, 2022

Guleesh said:
I reckon control of timing is the main advantage of owning your own kit. Contractors will naturally want do their own stuff in the most favourable conditions.

contractors own always seems to get left to last and has to take the risk when no one else wants to go with catchy weather

Henarar · Jun 15, 2022

Samcowman said:
contractors own always seems to get left to last and has to take the risk when no one else wants to go with catchy weather

I always booked our own in just the same as any other customer

holwellcourtfarm · Jun 15, 2022

som farmer said:
agreed, its the price of the kit, and labour, that stops us now.
most important thing now, is keeping the contractor happy, ours has dropped some farms, who still owed last years bill, and l don't blame him, this years costs will be more than last years.
several that baled and wrapped, last few years, have stopped. Heard bale/wrap, squares at £20, rounds at £14, but that's only hearsay. We have 'repaired' an older pit, 3cube concrete, and a few bits and pieces, cheaper than baling a lot. Got some hay down, didn't ask the price for that, had to be done.
The £56k, was to change, only remembered that, when someone posted £120,000, for new, that's a lot of money, got to bale a huge amount to justify that.
Quite happy to take the sheet, on/off the pit, our contractor quite happy to do 15 to 20acres, very local, doesn't need a big team.

the pit repair, was base, concrete laid in the 60's at 4inch, and been replaced several times, the back half, has perfect concrete, laid in 1955, 3ins thick, and we have same concrete, elsewhere, subjected to all lorries, tractors etc, and still fine, they obviously knew how to make it last !

This baler cost Dad £4500 out of Cambridge almost 10 years ago. Cost us £700 to sort the (known) fault out. Since then it's had a few pickup tines and a £500 control box overhaul. Done about 7500 bales in that time. Probably worth half what it cost now (Claas 240).

holwellcourtfarm · Jun 15, 2022

UK Agriculture Bill: how farming and forestry could co-exist happily

Alternative farming models, like wood pasture grazing, would allow the UK government to maintain food production while regenerating ecosystems.

theconversation.com

som farmer · Jun 15, 2022

Fenwick said:
Been trying to concentrate on animal performance while continuing thé nonselective grazing.

Thé lady few calves have been looking acceptable.

Around 1.2kgs daily gain on average. On a completely grass fed total grazing systèm.

A mate was delivering his calves at thé same time so we got to compare systèms.

View attachment 1042852

Thé Hay is done. Excellent conditions for it. 4.4 tonnes dm per ha on thé 3 year leys . So thats nice.

I sowed a New multispecies ley last autumn under cover of oats and radish. 122 bales for 4 ha. Contracters had a job to cut it though. And i had a rough Time with thé rake.

It will be interesting to sée thé analysis.

View attachment 1042851

@som farmer I think we can produce well enough on an organic systèm.

some can. Some rely on diesel, dread to think what our neighbour spends on diesel, but it doesn't do soil structure, or the environment any favours.
But l don't think organic farming, can feed the world, or it would need a lot of educating to get anywhere near that, the problems more in the poorer countries, where some education, might help improve ag practices.
But global food production, has to increase, to feed a growing population, and it isn't going to happen, without a good strategy. The price of fert, is obviously going to reduce production.
We had a good early grass growth, with much less fert, but now, growth is slowing down, is that because of a shortage of N, or because we are rapidly drying out again, l don't know.
I do know, that because of that early growth, we have 2nd cut grass fields available to graze, and those 'old' fashioned grasses, clovers and herbs, are still growing a bit.
I don't know what the answer is, keep plodding on, but remain receptive to new ideas. And if someone can show me, that organic farming, would give the results we need, i'd try it. In all fairness, we are heading to wards a semi organic system, by reducing our reliance on chemical farming, but its still nice to have those tools, to use.

som farmer · Jun 15, 2022

holwellcourtfarm said:
UK Agriculture Bill: how farming and forestry could co-exist happily

Alternative farming models, like wood pasture grazing, would allow the UK government to maintain food production while regenerating ecosystems.

theconversation.com

grazed a lot of orchards, in laws, had 120 acres of commercial, still grazing others now, but its not so straight forward, as some think, it needs a slightly different approach. Fly control has to be spot on, they can be a serious problem. And stock never graze the grass, as you would expect, and never that happy, growth rates were slower. And, they are dangerous places to check stock, once had a tree, jump out of line, into my truck.

Gulli · Jun 15, 2022

Kiwi Pete said:
Haha, yep, then it is you fixing that breakdown instead of a contractor

Not many folks roll their own down here TBH.

The odd dairy that makes over a couple of thousand a year will have their kit, otherwise the contractors usually handle it.
Mainly because of catchy weather, get a couple of Fusions gobbling up rows and you cover ground quickly

we have a contractor culture down here

Yes you do, but most contractors down there are setup to handle it better/have a different approach to it than the ones up here.
Helped by having more stable weather patterns in my experience and an all round different approach to grass.

holwellcourtfarm · Jun 16, 2022

Amazing what can appear when you give things time....

Plantnet reckons this is a sub-species of Bee Orchid, quite a rare plant.

It's growing on the field Mel's horses used to use. It was reclaimed after sand extraction in the late 1980s and is heavy clay.

We grazed it for a short period in 2019 and 2020 then mowed it for hay late last year.

Samcowman · Jun 16, 2022

Wildflowers are pretty cool. Top one is a bee orchid as well. Middle daughter knew what it was somehow. This is on some SSSI ground we graze taken a couple of weeks ago

hendrebc · Jun 16, 2022

I don't know who I would get to come and bale for us anymore. There used to be lots of contractors round here but hardly any now that I know of. Had a job to get a wrapper to come for today a friend came to help me out in the end. The friend who usually comes to wrap for me was flat out baling and had more work than he knows what to do with and he will really put the hours in when he needs to so he must have been really busy not to come.
Might have to get a wrapper eventually

Kiwi Pete · Jun 16, 2022

Gulli said:
Yes you do, but most contractors down there are setup to handle it better/have a different approach to it than the ones up here.
Helped by having more stable weather patterns in my experience and an all round different approach to grass.

They're set up far far better than most farmers could aspire to be.
Plenty still do a lot of their own work but I think it's largely a matter of "is it worth fixing this old piece of .... when I can just pay someone to do that job"

because time and energy are money!

hendrebc · Jun 17, 2022

Kiwi Pete said:
They're set up far far better than most farmers could aspire to be.
Plenty still do a lot of their own work but I think it's largely a matter of "is it worth fixing this old piece of .... when I can just pay someone to do that job"

because time and energy are money!

I've worked out at prices last year I could get the baling done for the same money with a contractor as I could doing it myself after wear and tear on the tractor and baler are taken into account. But getting someone to come is really difficult. Its no wonder so many have given up doing it.

Fenwick · Jun 17, 2022

Kiwi Pete said:
They're set up far far better than most farmers could aspire to be.
Plenty still do a lot of their own work but I think it's largely a matter of "is it worth fixing this old piece of .... when I can just pay someone to do that job"

because time and energy are money!

I'm really lucky with my contracters. Théy have some great gear and théy generally do a good job.

I'm always amazed how I can phone up and ask them to come and mow 20-25 ha and théy will fit it in thé same day.

I calculated thé cost of mowing with a lady from thé agricultural board. When we added all those hidden costs (dépréciation, my time, reperation costs etc) it was thé same final cost if it was me or them.

Kiwi Pete · Jun 17, 2022

hendrebc said:
I've worked out at prices last year I could get the baling done for the same money with a contractor as I could doing it myself after wear and tear on the tractor and baler are taken into account. But getting someone to come is really difficult. Its no wonder so many have given up doing it.

Same situation here but in reverse - better that Mr Contractor pays a good chunk of the price on depreciation than I

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