Lamb castration in the cross hairs

sheepwise · Mar 8, 2023

Tim W said:
Within 10 years there will be increased commercial pressure to reduce castration and tail docking (being nice to you all here )
This will probably come from buyers (supermarkets & processors) that are aiming to please their customers

I'm game for a £20 bet ^^^ ---probably donate to PETA LOL ---you might have to raise me from the dead to collect but we'll come to that problem if it arises

Food will be so short in 10 years time that lamb castration methods will be irrelevant.

S J H · Mar 8, 2023

Tim W said:
You might think that
But if your buyer says otherwise you better adapt

So they’ll be paying more for the non mutilated lambs then?

hoff135 · Mar 8, 2023

DrDunc said:
Anyone remember the days before rubber rings?

Cut throat razor that wasstropped continously to dock tails, and the lambs foot knife with the tiny blade to nick the ball sack.....

..... And a special "treat" for the naive wee boy at the sheep pens, the old shepherd would demonstrate removing the testicles with their teeth

Dog didn't need fed for days either....

Northeastfarmer · Mar 8, 2023

What actual buyers are asking for lambs to be left entire because some abattoirs won’t take ram lambs past October?!
Bloody shite stirring

S J H · Mar 8, 2023

Northeastfarmer said:
What actual buyers are asking for lambs to be left entire because some abattoirs won’t take ram lambs past October?!
Bloody shite stirring

And if we are supposed to be inline with the standards of where we export to, then how does that leave NZ exporting to the UK?

Nithsdale · Mar 8, 2023

Tim W said:
This is the situation in EU in 2019 (last time i reviewed it) ----they will want to protect their standards & if we don't comply others will (NZ/Aus etc)
In 2019 95% of UK lamb exports went to EU so it matters to us what they think

Country Import volume of UK sheep meat products (tonnes per annum) Tail docking Castration
France 30,500 Permitted Permitted with local anaesthetic
Germany 16,223 Permitted in individual cases Permitted, but rubber rings are banned
Republic of Ireland 9241 Permitted Permitted
Belgium 7200 Permitted in females, only if performed by a veterinary surgeon Permitted by a veterinary surgeon under sedation only
Netherlands 5208 Not permitted Not permitted
Italy 2652 Not permitted Not permitted

Sorry but this proves nothing. Do you not think these countries are fully aware of our position/practices already?
Just because they say it must be that way there, they are still more than happy to continue importing our produce... and that was 4 years ago - before Brexit, before the game changed, those countries had the perfect chance to flex their muscles on this and yet here we are and nothing has changed since.

There has been countless campaign/pressure for decades calling to end/ban Halal and Kosher slaughter yet our govt haven't jumped... What makes you so sure they'll move on this when they won't move on that?

What you're basically telling us is the EU will dictate practice to the entire sheep industry (global). Well, there simply is not a large enough market anywhere out there to take all the male lambs if left entire and the EU would find themselves short of lamb.

Tim W · Mar 8, 2023

S J H said:
So they’ll be paying more for the non mutilated lambs then?

If your buyer is exporting lambs or parts of lambs to a market that demands no mutilation then he /she may not buy castrates?

MRT · Mar 8, 2023

neilo said:
It’s an emotive term used as a shitty stick to beat us with. It saddens me that some of our own community seem happy to beat us with that same stick as much as Goldsmith’s crew do.

I don't know. Is adopting weasely language going to help anyone long term? It does seem to pay off for trendy single issue pressure groups I will admit, just not sure I want to engage like that. After the failure of the Ag Ammnedment Bill I think we shouldn't change a thing until and if the economics stack up. We are far too keen to give the consumer what they say they will pay for only to see them go anywhere else on price and not care a damn how it was produced.

MRT · Mar 8, 2023

Northeastfarmer said:
What actual buyers are asking for lambs to be left entire because some abattoirs won’t take ram lambs past October?!
Bloody shite stirring

Do they pay for testicles DW?

Northeastfarmer · Mar 8, 2023

Tim W said:
If your buyer is exporting lambs or parts of lambs to a market that demands no mutilation then he /she may not buy castrates?

Which market demands no castration?

Tim W · Mar 8, 2023

Northeastfarmer said:
What actual buyers are asking for lambs to be left entire because some abattoirs won’t take ram lambs past October?!
Bloody shite stirring

I'm not talking about today/this year ---i'm trying to foresee what we may have to do in the future , so that we can be prepared

Northeastfarmer said:
Which market demands no castration?

Some Muslim festivals (and some Halal certification bodies) prefer untouched lamb, so that's not castrated, not docked, with horns if possible and if they could with no ear tags
I have been contacted asking for this quite a few times but i've usually sold out of lamb

And others could develop from a perceived welfare view ---it's not a big deal, when/if it happens we will adapt

Northeastfarmer · Mar 8, 2023

Tim W said:
I'm not talking about today/this year ---i'm trying to foresee what we may have to do in the future , so that we can be prepared

Some Muslim festivals (and some Halal certification bodies) prefer untouched lamb, so that's not castrated, not docked, with horns if possible and if they could with no ear tags
I have been contacted asking for this quite a few times but i've usually sold out of lamb

And others could develop from a perceived welfare view ---it's not a big deal, when/if it happens we will adapt

Yes the ethnics want them uncastrated for religious beliefs not on welfare grounds which is what you keep banging on about.
you keep on banging on about mutilation and it’ll be you who puts us all in sh!t street

Aspiring Peasants · Mar 8, 2023

Tim W said:
You might think that
But if your buyer says otherwise you better adapt

Then why do whethers usually make more than tup lambs?

Tim W · Mar 8, 2023

Nithsdale Farmer said:
Sorry but this proves nothing. Do you not think these countries are fully aware of our position/practices already?
Just because they say it must be that way there, they are still more than happy to continue importing our produce... and that was 4 years ago - before Brexit, before the game changed, those countries had the perfect chance to flex their muscles on this and yet here we are and nothing has changed since.

When we were part of the club we were allowed differences (from the chart you can see that different countries within EU have different approaches)
Things could well change with the arguments/discussions around new trade deals ?

Nithsdale Farmer said:
There has been countless campaign/pressure for decades calling to end/ban Halal and Kosher slaughter yet our govt haven't jumped... What makes you so sure they'll move on this when they won't move on that?

They wont ---but the market could move on it ?

Nithsdale Farmer said:
What you're basically telling us is the EU will dictate practice to the entire sheep industry (global). Well, there simply is not a large enough market anywhere out there to take all the male lambs if left entire and the EU would find themselves short of lamb.

No ----the market will dictate terms as it always does

Tim W · Mar 8, 2023

Aspiring Peasants said:
Then why do whethers usually make more than tup lambs?

They do today but they may not if the market changes

Tim W · Mar 8, 2023

Northeastfarmer said:
Yes the ethnics want them uncastrated for religious beliefs not on welfare grounds which is what you keep banging on about.
you keep on banging on about mutilation and it’ll be you who puts us all in sh!t street

I ''keep banging on about'' market forces changing demand ---that comes from a host of different places
Religious
Perceived or real welfare
Market accessibility

It's not me asking for the review- The article in the original post says Vets BVA & SVS are calling for a review and also for suitable anaesthetics to be licenced -

I'm merely commenting and trying to explain why/how it could happen.

Hilly · Mar 8, 2023

It will be what it will be , if change is thrust ypon us we will adapt or jack it in ..

Aspiring Peasants · Mar 8, 2023

This is a prime example of why agriculture gets screwed over and over again. Putting a ring on a young lamb causes minimum pain. The welfare considerations going forward are much more severe with ram lambs in the autumn and the store trade is knackered. Every genuine sheep farmer knows this.

So what happens, instead of standing together to protest against this, immediately some people say we should bend over and have our tummies tickled and start using emotive words like mutilations. This has happened all my life in farming, people will sell out their fellow farmers if they can see a quick buck. Has tail docking been mentioned yet? That will be the next "mutilation" to be discussed and oh what a coincidence not having to dock tails is part of the marketing of shedding sheep

That table is misleading as well, it states the husbandry rules in particular countries not a requirement for imports.

Nithsdale · Mar 8, 2023

Tim W said:
No ----the market will dictate terms as it always does

The market would have to change dramatically

Aspiring Peasants · Mar 8, 2023

Nithsdale Farmer said:
The market would have to change dramatically

It would, less grass fed lamb for a start

Lamb castration in the cross hairs

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