Traditional mixed Farming

Kevtherev · Mar 20, 2023

DrWazzock said:
Most farmhouses here had a semi underground pantry or “dairy” to keep things cold.
Our butcher would never use any kind of disinfectant or detergent when cleaning equipment, just hot water.
We didn’t have mains water here till 1974. All of our drinking water came out of the well near the house.
And another random historical point: when my grandfather moved down here in 1953, from Scotland he wanted to continue dairy farming down here. But my uncle wanted to grow arable crops mainly because he liked machinery not cows. That was a pivotal moment in the history of this farm when you look back and in many ways it was a case of the tail wagging the dog. This farm is actually much more suited to livestock than arable and I often wonder what would have happened if my grandfather had got his way and established a dairy herd down here. Arguably my grandfather was the last professional farmer in our family until my brother came along. My father, uncle and myself were more machinery orientated and let that cloud our decision making in farming policy.
You live and learn. Machinery isn’t a means in itself. Do too many of us skew our farming policy to suit our enthusiasm for machinery over our reluctance to deal with stock? I know I do, and that’s basically the wrong approach.

Some farmers are great stockmen but not very good with machinery and vice versa.
Everyone’s different.

som farmer · Mar 20, 2023

mentioned before, we had archaeologists here on/off for 18 months.

they told me, this had been a predominantly stock farm, for the last 1,000 yrs or so.
apparently we had big fields, arable had small fields.

but l do think farms tend to lend themselves to either stock, or cropping, decided by farmers, over the last century or so. I also reckon, a mixed rotation doesn't do any harm, only good !

DrWazzock · Mar 20, 2023

I’ve always found you need grass for 5 years and arable for 3 to be what I’d call “farming it properly” here. A grass ley hasn’t got going until it’s 2nd year here. You certainly notice the benefit of grass in the arable rotation. Don’t need to feed the arable crops out of a can or bag all the time. The soil isn’t running on empty.
I’d like some cattle again but I’m a fairly rubbish stockman. Fairly sick of riding the commodities roller coaster and footing the massive inputs bill so might try them again when prices settle.

Bossfarmer · Mar 20, 2023

som farmer said:
mentioned before, we had archaeologists here on/off for 18 months.

they told me, this had been a predominantly stock farm, for the last 1,000 yrs or so.
apparently we had big fields, arable had small fields.

but l do think farms tend to lend themselves to either stock, or cropping, decided by farmers, over the last century or so. I also reckon, a mixed rotation doesn't do any harm, only good !

Why were arable fields smaller?

Kevtherev · Mar 20, 2023

DrWazzock said:
I’ve always found you need grass for 5 years and arable for 3 to be what I’d call “farming it properly” here. A grass ley hasn’t got going until it’s 2nd year here. You certainly notice the benefit of grass in the arable rotation. Don’t need to feed the arable crops out of a can or bag all the time. The soil isn’t running on empty.
I’d like some cattle again but I’m a fairly rubbish stockman. Fairly sick of riding the commodities roller coaster and footing the massive inputs bill so might try them again when prices settle.

Cattle to fatten or suckler cows?

DrWazzock · Mar 20, 2023

Arable is a doddle compared to stock that’s for sure. Still have nightmares about a 2am caesarean, mastitis, treating a lame cow and all that jazz. Changing a clutch is a walk in the park by comparison. No tractor ever tried to kill me while I tried to sort it out.

DrWazzock · Mar 20, 2023

Kevtherev said:
Cattle to fatten or suckler cows?

I’ll say suckler cows. Although it was a time of considerable heartache it also gave me the most pleasure to see my small herd make its way around the field. Bull, ten cows and calves. Native breeds. I did better selling those stores than fattening them. I had a fair demand for my stores to go on other people’s enviro scheme land.

DrWazzock · Mar 20, 2023

Change is as good as a rest they say.

Kevtherev · Mar 20, 2023

DrWazzock said:
Change is as good as a rest they say.

It is and it allows more energy to be channeled into something new.

som farmer · Mar 20, 2023

Bossfarmer said:
Why were arable fields smaller?

weeding was done by hand
smaller fields were more sheltered
but to be honest, l would have thought the other way around.

they are the 'experts', l haven't got a clue.

Cab-over Pete · Mar 21, 2023

Also, if the soils types are very variable across the farm, hedges and boundaries would have been put where the soil changed leading to the influence on field sizes.

In this area there can be 2/3/4 soil types in one 15 acre field so that one field would have been 3 five acre fields years ago.

DrWazzock · Mar 21, 2023

Cab-over Pete said:
Also, if the soils types are very variable across the farm, hedges and boundaries would have been put where the soil changed leading to the influence on field sizes.

In this area there can be 2/3/4 soil types in one 15 acre field so that one field would have been 3 five acre fields years ago.

That’s absolutely right. All the old field boundaries here segregated areas of rank clay from sand.
I’ve actually considered going back to that kind of segregation many a time to ease management and timeliness.

Kevtherev · Mar 21, 2023

Cab-over Pete said:
Also, if the soils types are very variable across the farm, hedges and boundaries would have been put where the soil changed leading to the influence on field sizes.

In this area there can be 2/3/4 soil types in one 15 acre field so that one field would have been 3 five acre fields years ago.

There’s a 27 acre field here that was originally in 11 fields
Father pushed all the hedges out on the grants in late 70s

Ffermer Bach · Mar 21, 2023

Kevtherev said:
There’s a 27 acre field here that was originally in 11 fields
Father pushed all the hedges out on the grants in late 70s

and if you were rotationally grazing, I bet it would be back to 11 fields again, only this time fenced with poly wire.

som farmer · Mar 21, 2023

electric fencing, revolutionised stock farming,

Devil's advocate · Mar 21, 2023

Kevtherev said:
There’s a 27 acre field here that was originally in 11 fields
Father pushed all the hedges out on the grants in late 70s

I've just taken on 31 acre in 12 fields.

Plus the piles of old house bricks, broken concrete & old sofa's.

Happy days.

som farmer · Mar 21, 2023

cheap l hope, if you have to clear it up.

in the past, l have farmed land adjacent to housing estates, just piled the rubbish back over their fence, they wouldn't be told, but soon learnt.

we have taken on some land, 3rd year now, houses all along one side. No rubbish been chucked over fences, and no gates from garden to field, amazing. More so, when the villagers are 'friendly'.

Red Fred · Mar 21, 2023

Kevtherev said:
Remember doing work on some old houses and they had an outdoor type of larder fridge like an underground shed cut into the bank
Very cold in there in the clay.

Where my sister worked near Thame, they discovered a Tudor ice-house cut into the hillside which belonged to the palace that once stood nearby. The present owners had them clear the brambles and discovered the brick entrance tunnel with a deep underground room where the food was stored. They found that ice was brought over from the Netherlands by barge in the cold winters and sold to the wealthy owners along the Thames, and it would be poured into the ice house where it would remain frozen for months or even years.
The entrance tunnel has now been restored and looks really good.

cmtwngo · Mar 21, 2023

Loving hearing about old techniques used, some are really fascinating! I have some questions and I feel like the people on this thread are going to be the most equipped to help answer them.

1) What are the barriers to taking a more traditional/mixed farming approach? Is it financial? Labour? No time or money to take a break to make changes?
2) Is there any interest in making changes to combat potential issues arising in the future; for example tighter reins from DEFRA and wholesalers, or destruction of soil due to a monocrop culture overriding the farming methods in the UK?
3) Do the accreditation systems benefit you (Red Tractor, Soil Association, Organic Association, etc)? How? Is there the space for a low cost, common sense accreditation built on the foundations of working with the farmers rather than challenging them and ticking boxes for the sake of it?
4) How does the SFI impact farmers? Are the financial benefits too high to consider something else?

Thank you for any clarity you can offer me! I am currently looking into how to bring back a more mixed farming approach to the UK and bring power back to the people so hearing directly from farmers is very important to me.

TelesnaAg · Mar 21, 2023

Kiwi Pete said:
I agree.
The degenerative destructive model has run its race if you want my opinion.
Politics will likely dictate that we all pull out the stops to preserve the environment, not pay people to pull ploughs around.

I think regenerative agricultural methods, and more holistic approaches are going to be crucial, just as happened in much of the grain belt in the US, Australia etc.

Unfortunately the UK livestock model has put a huge price on straw etc, which ideally would be left standing for the next crop.

But, if you breed it in, it's hard to bray it out.. I do feel future environmental payments will likely focus on much more than wildlife strips and hedgecutting season being observed.

Good time to look sideways and behind us.
But most of all, at what's under our feet.

Imo straw is effall, roots is where its at for om and fungi, i wouldn't be to fussed about the straw.

The most hypocritical thing ive ever seen is germany bio fuel, then drag a mouldboard plough through the field...saving the planet 1 worn out tractor at a time.

Im going down the roadof fungal dominated soil as i believer fert and fuel will be restricted, so it keeps me close to the organic edge, then if animal production gets restricted ss i believe maybe in my retirement it will, i hope not but i want the farm to be able to switch into protein products without being up sh*t creek with poor soil, grow some protein cheap and that will be me done.

Finding a lab to test soil for bacteria and fungi will be the challenge.

Ant...

Traditional mixed Farming

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