3 Machinery Farm Deaths in 3 Weeks

kiwi pom · Jun 20, 2023

glasshouse said:
Yawn yawn yawn
Builders are not price takers.
They quote for a job including profit, on a take it or leave it basis.
Supermatkets set their prices and collect cash at the till then wait months to pay farmer.
Lots of farmers operate on short term leases on scattered blocks which makes investment in good facilities impossible.
I rented a rundown farm thirty yr ago and invested in good fixed equipment to do the work safely and healthily.
Then the arse govt handed the landlord the subsidy directly and i got evicted.
Now back to working with gates and string and other old shyte

Builders can set the price, but they lose work all the time to others who undercut, the same in any industry. Supermarkets are a few bad decisions and a month away from going under. They spend a fortune on compliance every year, some they can get back, some they can't.
You just don't see these companies when they are gone.
You don't see many land-owning farmers (or tenants) selling everything to get into the building trade or setting up a retail chain, do you? Why not, they can charge what they want surely?

kiwi pom · Jun 20, 2023

thesilentone said:
Yes, I agree about competencies. However, on some sites the excavator driver maybe down a hole in a confined space, alongside someone using stihl saw, while steel is being lifted and moved overhead with no end of safety inspectors and banksmen around to monitor and check.

We tend to be alone, and in many cases cut corners to save time or money.

There is no easy solution, on farms people are still falling through roofs for goodness sake.

So why are people still falling through roofs or unblocking running machines or crashing quad bikes? Many of these people claim to be competent but are just cutting corners due to costs? I don't think that's true. I think we need to look at the individual's ability to do the tasks. I think a lot of the time that some of the commentors on here would be fired or kicked off site if they worked for someone else because they simply don't have the awareness or basic skills to do the job safely.
I mentioned this before, but a mate's boss recently bought a small farm and employed the farmer in the business. They had to let him go because of his inability to carry out work correctly and safely, he was putting the rest of the team at risk, and yet he had been the business owner and soul worker for a couple of decades.

I don't know how you fix stupid but some of these tragic accidents are because of stupidity.
Everyone knows better and blames something else though.

glasshouse · Jun 20, 2023

kiwi pom said:
So why are people still falling through roofs or unblocking running machines or crashing quad bikes? Many of these people claim to be competent but are just cutting corners due to costs? I don't think that's true. I think we need to look at the individual's ability to do the tasks. I think a lot of the time that some of the commentors on here would be fired or kicked off site if they worked for someone else because they simply don't have the awareness or basic skills to do the job safely.
I mentioned this before, but a mate's boss recently bought a small farm and employed the farmer in the business. They had to let him go because of his inability to carry out work correctly and safely, he was putting the rest of the team at risk, and yet he had been the business owner and soul worker for a couple of decades.

I don't know how you fix stupid but some of these tragic accidents are because of stupidity.
Everyone knows better and blames something else though.

People under pressure make poor decisions

e5c0rt.mk1 · Jun 21, 2023

kiwi pom said:
Builders can set the price, but they lose work all the time to others who undercut, the same in any industry. Supermarkets are a few bad decisions and a month away from going under. They spend a fortune on compliance every year, some they can get back, some they can't.
You just don't see these companies when they are gone.
You don't see many land-owning farmers (or tenants) selling everything to get into the building trade or setting up a retail chain, do you? Why not, they can charge what they want surely?

The majority of farmers need their head looking at, me included. The amount of outlay on land, machines etc to barely make a wage is stupid never mind the amount of hours you have to do, but for most farmers its a way of life and its all some people have known.

If a man livng in the street wanted to buy a 100acre farm and finish cattle on it, he would have to spend literally millions of pounds on land and tractors to make maybe 40 - 50 grand profit. A bricklayer can make the same sort of money per year and all he needs to buy is a £10 trowel from screefix and a piece of string.

Its about time farmers started getting a fair price for what they produce and then the majority of problems with safety would sort themselves out.

kiwi pom · Jun 21, 2023

e5c0rt.mk1 said:
The majority of farmers need their head looking at, me included. The amount of outlay on land, machines etc to barely make a wage is stupid never mind the amount of hours you have to do, but for most farmers its a way of life and its all some people have known.

If a man livng in the street wanted to buy a 100acre farm and finish cattle on it, he would have to spend literally millions of pounds on land and tractors to make maybe 40 - 50 grand profit. A bricklayer can make the same sort of money per year and all he needs to buy is a £10 trowel from screefix and a piece of string.

Its about time farmers started getting a fair price for what they produce and then the majority of problems with safety would sort themselves out.

I don't think for a second that will solve the problem.
It does bring up the question of what are farmers actually qualified to do?
For many (not all) they just have to be around at home and take over from mum and dad, no qualifications, no training, just do what dad said.

Grab a trowel go on site and see how much money you can make.
You might have a shock.

I used to watch Millennial farmer on YouTube, he raises lots of money to train local fire departments on how to rescue people trapped in grain bins.
Ok fair one, I've never heard him talking about how to avoid going in there in the first place though. It's just a way of life for him, he learnt it off his dad and they either can't be arsed or don't have the intelligence to do things differently, they just say it's one of the risks.
No it Isn't.

ollie989898 · Jun 21, 2023

Ffermer Bach said:
I have never come across anyone removing a PTO guard to make it more handy.

Still see plenty of PTO guards fudged or missing. Makes me cringe to see them.

ollie989898 · Jun 21, 2023

kiwi pom said:
I don't think for a second that will solve the problem.
It does bring up the question of what are farmers actually qualified to do?
For many (not all) they just have to be around at home and take over from mum and dad, no qualifications, no training, just do what dad said.

Grab a trowel go on site and see how much money you can make.
You might have a shock.

I used to watch Millennial farmer on YouTube, he raises lots of money to train local fire departments on how to rescue people trapped in grain bins.
Ok fair one, I've never heard him talking about how to avoid going in there in the first place though. It's just a way of life for him, he learnt it off his dad and they either can't be arsed or don't have the intelligence to do things differently, they just say it's one of the risks.
No it Isn't.

I'm fudged if I would ever enter one of those grain bins. Not until the thing is near empty and requiring a sweep up job.

e5c0rt.mk1 · Jun 21, 2023

kiwi pom said:
I don't think for a second that will solve the problem.
It does bring up the question of what are farmers actually qualified to do?
For many (not all) they just have to be around at home and take over from mum and dad, no qualifications, no training, just do what dad said.

Grab a trowel go on site and see how much money you can make.
You might have a shock.

I used to watch Millennial farmer on YouTube, he raises lots of money to train local fire departments on how to rescue people trapped in grain bins.
Ok fair one, I've never heard him talking about how to avoid going in there in the first place though. It's just a way of life for him, he learnt it off his dad and they either can't be arsed or don't have the intelligence to do things differently, they just say it's one of the risks.
No it Isn't.

Nearly all problems in life can be solved with money.

You don't need qualifications to be an expert at what you do, one of the best way to learn a job is through apprenticeships because you get the real world experience of the job, most farmers have had that real world experience every day of their lives growing up. I know people who have pages of qualifications and are as thick as s**t and others who never even went to school who are extremely successful at what they do.

As for the bricklaying, if I couldnt get the hang of it in a week and be as good as any bricky in a month I'd be ashamed of myself. I think the majority of people would still struggle to run a farm after 10 years, if they have had no prior experience working on one, as there is so much to learn.

Alot of accidents is down to the lack of common sense, you can have pto with no guard on which is dangerous, but common sense tells you not to go anywhere near it, when its running, guarded or not.

kiwi pom · Jun 21, 2023

e5c0rt.mk1 said:
Nearly all problems in life can be solved with money.

You don't need qualifications to be an expert at what you do, one of the best way to learn a job is through apprenticeships because you get the real world experience of the job, most farmers have had that real world experience every day of their lives growing up. I know people who have pages of qualifications and are as thick as s**t and others who never even went to school who are extremely successful at what they do.

As for the bricklaying, if I couldnt get the hang of it in a week and be as good as any bricky in a month I'd be ashamed of myself. I think the majority of people would still struggle to run a farm after 10 years, if they have had no prior experience working on one, as there is so much to learn.

Alot of accidents is down to the lack of common sense, you can have pto with no guard on which is dangerous, but common sense tells you not to go anywhere near it, when its running, guarded or not.

You don't need qualifications, but you need to be shown the right way to operate. Like I said Millennial farmer has no clue when it comes to safety, but everyone would probably say he's a common-sense businessman.
How do you know you are doing something properly? I've worked for a large number of farmers and the one thing they all have in common is they have a different way of doing things.

Brick laying is a trade same as farming, you could lay bricks quickly but there is much more to the job than that, you have to learn and be able to work on site and operate to a standard and run it as a business, most trades are self-employed just like farmers.
Running a farm is running a business, this idea you need to be doing it for ever isn't realistic.

glasshouse · Jun 21, 2023

kiwi pom said:
You don't need qualifications, but you need to be shown the right way to operate. Like I said Millennial farmer has no clue when it comes to safety, but everyone would probably say he's a common-sense businessman.
How do you know you are doing something properly? I've worked for a large number of farmers and the one thing they all have in common is they have a different way of doing things.

Brick laying is a trade same as farming, you could lay bricks quickly but there is much more to the job than that, you have to learn and be able to work on site and operate to a standard and run it as a business, most trades are self-employed just like farmers.
Running a farm is running a business, this idea you need to be doing it for ever isn't realistic.

If farmers were realistic and brutal with numbers, nobody would farm.
You are born into it and theres no escape.

Highland Mule · Jun 21, 2023

glasshouse said:
Yawn yawn yawn
Builders are not price takers.
They quote for a job including profit, on a take it or leave it basis.

And if the price is too high, they have no work - they ask, but they don't set.

glasshouse said:
Supermatkets set their prices and collect cash at the till then wait months to pay farmer.

Again, they ask, but they don't get any custom unless the intended customer is content with the price.

If you don't think that's true, just give the auctioneer a reserve when you next go to the mart - it's exactly the same concept. Make it unreasonable and your goods will go unsold, just like builders and supermarkets find if they do.

glasshouse said:
Lots of farmers operate on short term leases on scattered blocks which makes investment in good facilities impossible.

That's a possible reason, I agree.

glasshouse said:
Now back to working with gates and string and other old shyte

Invest in some decent mobile kit and you'll not lose. My experience is that the value of galvanized steel goes up faster than money in the bank, if you buy it right and look after it.

bluebell · Jun 21, 2023

Im afaid its "human nature", i have to admit, that while round baling the other day, i got under the open back of the baler, a few times, without locking the safety latch on the hydralics, its like , yes i know what you should do, but but?

Andy Nash · Jun 21, 2023

bluebell said:
Im afaid its "human nature", i have to admit, that while round baling the other day, i got under the open back of the baler, a few times, without locking the safety latch on the hydralics, its like , yes i know what you should do, but but?

It is unfortunately. I have had to stop myself from doing that a few times.
I try and think what it would be like if it came down on me, especially as I’m nearly always working alone.

This is why I think reading accident reports is such a good idea - it makes you think.

A few pages back someone commented on a lad refuelling a tractor while astride a guarded pto shaft, and was horrified.
I actually don’t think that was particularly dangerous, certainly bad practice though. I’ve never ever heard of anyone being killed by a guarded pto, but plenty have been by being trapped under the back door of a round baler.

Goweresque · Jun 21, 2023

kiwi pom said:
So why are people still falling through roofs or unblocking running machines or crashing quad bikes?

Because they are human beings. The human reaction (or at least the human MALE reaction) is to say 'F8ck it, lets do it, whats the worst that could happen?' We all exist because our ancestors were risk takers. Its hard wired into our DNA. You only have to look at videos of around the world of what people do in countries where there are no controls over their activities. The UK farming sector is like a children's playground in comparison. Even within the UK, just examine the accident record in people's homes, where they are not covered by any H&S copntrols. RoSPA figures suggest 6000 people die as a result of an accident in the home each and every year. So left to their own devices human beings are quite capable of behaving like sheep and finding ways to kill themselves. Farms are in effect an extension of people's homes - they are private property and although various laws on H&S cover them there can be no enforcement of such other than after the event in most cases. On a day to day basis farmers can do what they like.

So as I repeatedly point out, while farming remains a peasant industry (ie individuals running their own operations with no management control above them) its accident record will remain poor. If it ever becomes an entirely corporate industry where ownership is separated from management and labour, then the record will improve (but still probably be worse than average, given the far greater risks involved in farming than sitting in an office, for example).

Taenn · Jun 21, 2023

"The bottom line. It can take anywhere from 18 to 254 days for a person to form a new habit and an average of 66 days for a new behavior to become automatic."

Every time I park my ass in the tractor I grab the seatbelt with left hand whilst the right pulls down the steering wheel.
Nowadays it takes more time to decide not to use the seatbelt than the ingrained habit.

I'd say it took a month of spring work for the habit to stick properly in 2017 when I decided to take it seriously.

I'm by no means perfect in terms of safety as my single tractor fert loading/spreading contraption can attest to, but as a one man band operation working alone I need only make one fatal mistake.

Taenn · Jun 21, 2023

Andy Nash said:
I actually don’t think that was particularly dangerous, certainly bad practice though. I’ve never ever heard of anyone being killed by a guarded pto, but plenty have been by being trapped under the back door of a round baler.

The problem even with guarded pto is the very common broken plastic eye holding the securing chain stopping the guard from rotating as well.
Just needs to get a hold of a piece of loose clothing (wide pant legs, shoelaces, torn piece, etc, etc) to start reeling you in.

If someone is invention inclined then there's good money for coming up with a new pto guard that's easily (and cheaply) replaceable with some good solutions for grease access without needing 4 arms and a 6ft tail with accessory attachment.

glasshouse · Jun 21, 2023

Highland Mule said:
And if the price is too high, they have no work - they ask, but they don't set.

Again, they ask, but they don't get any custom unless the intended customer is content with the price.

If you don't think that's true, just give the auctioneer a reserve when you next go to the mart - it's exactly the same concept. Make it unreasonable and your goods will go unsold, just like builders and supermarkets find if they do.

That's a possible reason, I agree.

Invest in some decent mobile kit and you'll not lose. My experience is that the value of galvanized steel goes up faster than money in the bank, if you buy it right and look after it.

You need to waken up.
Builders have a year waiting list for clients.
They get what they ask
And if they dont, they dont take on the job and go on holiday or retire early.
Farmers have to grow the stock or crop first then try and get aprice.
Never yet seen mobile concrete floors or sheds or mains electric

killie_cowboy · Jun 21, 2023

farenheit said:
I think the catalyst is that the nature of farms is that the line between home life and farm is so blurred. How many of us have a checklist for the ladder we use in our garden? Or write a risk assessment to rewire a plug in our bedroom? Its very hard to make that mental shift for most people. Then, when farmers sons/daughters leave home, having grown up with that attitude, they take it to their new employers and become managers and then the culture is the same there. The biggest farming companies probably help by chucking enough money at the resources that it doesn't feel like a 'sacrifice' to be safe, but there will still be people who ignore it because it feels too 'nannyish'. The only way you can enforce it, is to enforce it. To normalise it. To make doing the 'easy' way a taboo. Plus most farmers are just old as sh1t and should have retired years ago.

But yeah, kids on farms is just stupid. But then, tell your local machinery dealer to stop selling kids overalls.

Edit: and don't forget this kind of rubbish

I'm afraid you're the one talking a load of rubbish. Don't get me wrong H&S is very important but this whole "kids shouldn't be on farms" really quite angers me. Seems to be English arable farmers, maybe its a different, less family orientated farming culture down there, but I'm a young lad of 20 and I can tell you if I wasnt about the farm as a wean then I'd probably not be farming now. There's that many distractions and other interests for youths to take nowadays especially with the internet. You should ofc drum H&S into your kids. I.e. when you hear a tractor coming, stand with your back against a wall or keep them in the cab with you. But we talk about the govt doing everything to cancel agriculture in the UK, well I think you've got a plan to beat them. If you don't introduce the next generation, There. Will. Not. Be. One!!!!!

Highland Mule · Jun 21, 2023

glasshouse said:
You need to waken up.
Builders have a year waiting list for clients.
They get what they ask
And if they dont, they dont take on the job and go on holiday or retire early.
Farmers have to grow the stock or crop first then try and get aprice.
Never yet seen mobile concrete floors or sheds or mains electric

Sounds like you should give up farming and start building, if it's that easy. If you sold all your invested assets you could probably afford to retire early too, then just buy a trowel and a spade when you get bored.

e5c0rt.mk1 · Jun 21, 2023

If you told a builder to go and buy all the materials to build a house, then employ other people to help build it and once its finished, you will tell him how much you are going to pay him for all his hard work and the materials. I think you would get a 2 word answer, first word will start with an F, the last word will be off.

Farmers do that all day, everyday, buying all the inputs, seed, fert, diesel, machines, feed, straw etc. at whatever cost and then being told how much they are going get for the end product. Its a massive gamble every year that we all just go along with.

I'm not sure how It can change but it needs to

3 Machinery Farm Deaths in 3 Weeks

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Up to 25%

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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