The war in Ukraine...

H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
BrianV said:
And yet for 20 years America had to rely on Russian rockets to get Americans to the space station, surprising for a tin pot country.
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And both Russia and and the 'new' world power India have Moon landings occurring as we write. But wars are tricky things. Ukraine I presume never asked for a war. Russia started it - and I know you will say were goaded into it - but the longer term effect on Russian body politic might make the body politic wish it never had.

www.wired.com

Russia and India Are Racing to Put Landers on the Moon

Robotic spacecraft from both countries are aiming to touch down on the moon’s southern hemisphere, as one’s space program waxes and the other wanes.
www.wired.com www.wired.com
 
H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
farmerm said:
You think Putin wants meaningful negotiations that would result in long term peace? Any agreement that falls short of allowing the remaining Ukraine to join NATO would be nothing but an opportunity for Russia to consolidate and rearm. Like you say Putin is happy to send unlimited numbers of Russians to their death for his vanity project. Putin will not readily accept any deal that leaves an independent, Western looking, NATO protected Ukraine. Any deal that forever closes the door on any prospect of Russia ever taking control of Kyiv and the Black Sea coastline. It’s a really sh!t position but Ukraine really does only have 2 choices, submit to Russia or expel Russia. If Ukraine submits to Putins demands, thousands would be imprisoned and tortured, millions more would flee to Europe and those that remain would face being conscripted as cannon fodder into Putins next front line. Most Ukrainians are very clear, the would rather fight and die as Ukrainians than live and die as Russians. I fear this war will only end when the Russian public finally see sense, when the realise it is Russia that are the aggressors, when Russians grasp the vast lost of human and economic resources are in vein. The faster Ukraine can degrade, destroy and push back Russian forces the sooner the turning point will be reached.
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And to date the office of the UN is useless and pointless. Sad days for world politics.
 
B

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
farmerm said:
You think Putin wants meaningful negotiations that would result in long term peace? Any agreement that falls short of allowing the remaining Ukraine to join NATO would be nothing but an opportunity for Russia to consolidate and rearm. Like you say Putin is happy to send unlimited numbers of Russians to their death for his vanity project. Putin will not readily accept any deal that leaves an independent, Western looking, NATO protected Ukraine. Any deal that forever closes the door on any prospect of Russia ever taking control of Kyiv and the Black Sea coastline. It’s a really sh!t position but Ukraine really does only have 2 choices, submit to Russia or expel Russia. If Ukraine submits to Putins demands, thousands would be imprisoned and tortured, millions more would flee to Europe and those that remain would face being conscripted as cannon fodder into Putins next front line. Most Ukrainians are very clear, the would rather fight and die as Ukrainians than live and die as Russians. I fear this war will only end when the Russian public finally see sense, when the realise it is Russia that are the aggressors, when Russians grasp the vast lost of human and economic resources are in vein. The faster Ukraine can degrade, destroy and push back Russian forces the sooner the turning point will be reached.
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And yet before this war started there were millions of Ukranian's happy to live under Russian control being " tortured, imprisoned dying daily " which is somewhat surprising, you really do believe the crap you read!
The Ukrainian leadership have no where now to go, far too much has been lost to now compromise so the war will continue until they fight to a standstill, Ukraine will not be joining NATO despite the crap that low life lying Western politicians pretend to the poor suckered Ukrainians, it is not possible whilst Russia occupies any part of Ukraine.
 
quattro

quattro

Member
Location
scotland
BrianV said:
And yet for 20 years America had to rely on Russian rockets to get Americans to the space station, surprising for a tin pot country.
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Please be honest and tell us what your love of Russia is? You blame anyone and everyone else for this war, but obvious to see you have a strong liking of Russia
which isn’t a problem but at least admit it instead of using all these other excuses
 
B

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
quattro said:
Please be honest and tell us what your love of Russia is? You blame anyone and everyone else for this war, but obvious to see you have a strong liking of Russia
which isn’t a problem but at least admit it instead of using all these other excuses
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Have no love for Russia or Ukraine having been to neither, I just tell it as I see it & take into account what I was told very early on, whatever finally happens the world is now without doubt a far less safe place for our kids & grand kids futures.
 
Highland Mule

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Scottish Highlands
BrianV said:
I just tell it as I see it & take into account what I was told very early on
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So your opinion is 100% on the basis of a lack of appreciation of the inplications of the Cold War, a single conversation with a leg pulling mate in early 2022 and the fact you don’t delete the cookies on your computer.
Wow, just wow.
 
H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
BrianV said:
Have no love for Russia or Ukraine having been to neither, I just tell it as I see it & take into account what I was told very early on, whatever finally happens the world is now without doubt a far less safe place for our kids & grand kids futures.
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Why is it a less safe world? Democracies needed a kick. The downside of autocratic political systems has been highlighted. The relative pointlessness of nuclear weapons. That cheap tecnology in the hands of partisan type operators can overide high tech 'world powers'. Pretty similar outcome to all conflicts since 1945. Oh and the benefit of being born in the UK - with your Blue / Black / Red (spit as that was EU) passport with its moat and history. As for folk in eastern Europe a reminder of the strong sense of Imperialism from the 18Century has not been lost on the current crop of Zcars in the KGB - the proletariat Zcars which in itself is bemusing.

Meant to add a strengthening of political solidarity between the Baltic and Nordic states. Russia has managed to do what joining the EU didn't. And formed a strong political axis within the EU26 - thus counterbalancing France/Germany and replacing the loss of the UK from that previous counterbalance role. A strengthening of the influence of Turkey - although economically not so good. So much good out of what is a disaster for the Russian state.
 
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F

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
BrianV said:
And yet before this war started there were millions of Ukranian's happy to live under Russian control being " tortured, imprisoned dying daily " which is somewhat surprising, you really do believe the crap you read!
The Ukrainian leadership have no where now to go, far too much has been lost to now compromise so the war will continue until they fight to a standstill, Ukraine will not be joining NATO despite the crap that low life lying Western politicians pretend to the poor suckered Ukrainians, it is not possible whilst Russia occupies any part of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
How is it you know there were happy, did you ask them? I would argue this war started in 2014. That of those 5 million or so Ukrainians “happy to live under Russian control” some regarded themselves as Russian not Ukrainian. Many others were far from happy under Russian control but unable to leave for a myriad of reasons. There are a significant number still living in Crimea who are conducting regular surveillance and sabotage against the invaders.

With Putin convinced Ukrainian was always a none entity, a stolen part of Russia he was destined to reclaim, Ukraine and its leadership never really had anywhere else to go but to put up a fight or flee.

You talk of negotiations.. in negotiations Ukraine could concede occupied territory to Russia, if that happened Russia would be occupying a former part of Ukraine but would cease to be occupying any part of Ukraine. However Ukraine doesn’t need formally NATO membership, security guarantees from a number of NATO members would deliver the same protections. Right now Putin will not agree to anything that delivers any enhanced security to Ukraine against future Russian aggression. For any prospect of meaningful long term peace and security Ukraine simply have no choice but to fight on until that changes. Despite the terrible pain being inflicted on Ukraine right now, appeasing Putin will only lead to more war.
 
quattro

quattro

Member
Location
scotland
BrianV said:
Have no love for Russia or Ukraine having been to neither, I just tell it as I see it & take into account what I was told very early on, whatever finally happens the world is now without doubt a far less safe place for our kids & grand kids futures.
Click to expand...
So do not agree Russia was supposed to have one have the best and strongest army’s in the world, they have turned out to be a pathetic organised tin pot army only surviving because their leader is willing to keep throwing them to their deaths
 
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F

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
BrianV said:
Have no love for Russia or Ukraine having been to neither, I just tell it as I see it & take into account what I was told very early on, whatever finally happens the world is now without doubt a far less safe place for our kids & grand kids futures.
Click to expand...
You think if the West had folded to Russian nuclear blackmail, if the West had not supported Ukraine strengthen its defences after Russia invaded in 2014, you think the world would have become safer, more stable, dream on Brian, dream on.
 
B

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
You might wonder why they would be stupid enough to hold such an event in the centre of the city.

1692446884930.png

Russia hit Chernihiv during drone manufacturers and aerial reconnaissance gathering​

OLENA ROSHCHINA — SATURDAY, 19 AUGUST 2023, 14:14

7416247
 
R

Raider112

Member
BrianV said:
And yet before this war started there were millions of Ukranian's happy to live under Russian control being " tortured, imprisoned dying daily " which is somewhat surprising, you really do believe the crap you read!
The Ukrainian leadership have no where now to go, far too much has been lost to now compromise so the war will continue until they fight to a standstill, Ukraine will not be joining NATO despite the crap that low life lying Western politicians pretend to the poor suckered Ukrainians, it is not possible whilst Russia occupies any part of Ukraine.
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"It is not possible whilst Russia occupies part of Ukraine"

The penny is finally dropping then?
For all your bleating about Russia not wanting NATO on it's border you have been told the above from day one, nice to see you finally accepted it.
Maybe you could point it out to your mysterious friend?
 
B

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
Raider112 said:
"It is not possible whilst Russia occupies part of Ukraine"

The penny is finally dropping then?
For all your bleating about Russia not wanting NATO on it's border you have been told the above from day one, nice to see you finally accepted it.
Maybe you could point it out to your mysterious friend?
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But that is not what America has been pretending & the Russians being led to believe is it, perhaps the penny hasn't yet dropped with you.
 
R

Raider112

Member
BrianV said:
But that is not what America has been pretending & the Russians being led to believe is it, perhaps the penny hasn't yet dropped with you.
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I don't know what the Americans have been pretending but if the Russians were daft enough to believe it they'll believe anything.
You, I and everyone else knows that Ukraine can't join NATO while Russia occupy part of the Country.
I wouldn't be surprised if the rules are changed due to Russia's actions though.
 
C

Charlie Gill

Member
Location
Kent
BrianV said:
You might wonder why they would be stupid enough to hold such an event in the centre of the city.

View attachment 1131419

Russia hit Chernihiv during drone manufacturers and aerial reconnaissance gathering​

OLENA ROSHCHINA — SATURDAY, 19 AUGUST 2023, 14:14

7416247
Click to expand...
putin doesn't need an excuse, he'll bomb anything for the terror of it. Remember 'children' being written on the ground outside the Mariupol theatre?
 

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