SAM2 Mulitspecies cover, who is doing it and what's your plan?

farmerm · Jan 31, 2024

AndrewM said:
do you have blackgrass, do use a pre-em if so how strong ? you need something to grow through the pre-em, not too competitive with the wheat over winter, can be taken out by spring herbicide. beans will grow through liberator application. oats usually survive 1/2 rate liberator. do you have capability to precision drill. i imagine drilling the other species inbetween the rows of the cash crop would work best

Blackgrass, trying to maintain zero tolerance with rouging and had to knapsac a few small patches this year, we are not at the stacking pre-ems point, yet. Oats are a cereal so dont really count but cheap so could be used to made some more expensive seed go a bit futher perhaps. I wondered about a sprinkle of winter linseed, not grown it but looks to have similar growing tendancy to winter wheat? It surprises me there seems to be so little interest in SAM2 when the original SFI offer multispecies winter cover as a mandatory inclusion iirc! Ive still to hit the submit button but I am thinking include it on all the area intended for winter cereals next autumn, I have 9 months to figure it out.

Hindsight · Jan 31, 2024

farmerm said:
Blackgrass, trying to maintain zero tolerance with rouging and had to knapsac a few small patches this year, we are not at the stacking pre-ems point, yet. Oats are a cereal so dont really count but cheap so could be used to made some more expensive seed go a bit futher perhaps. I wondered about a sprinkle of winter linseed, not grown it but looks to have similar growing tendancy to winter wheat? It surprises me there seems to be so little interest in SAM2 when the original SFI offer multispecies winter cover as a mandatory inclusion iirc! Ive still to hit the submit button but I am thinking include it on all the area intended for winter cereals next autumn, I have 9 months to figure it out.

I have a few applications in spreadsheet format. The SAM2 Winter Cereal / WInter Rape wheeze I have farms unsure, so have suggested we get SFI 2023 application in an up and away - many contain an area of AHL1 in lieu of failed rape/wheat and in place of Spring break crops, so really would like those active from March or April 1st. Then come back in a few weeks / months when maybe mor clarification of the SAM2 wheeze and the farmers I visit have thought it through a bit more with a second SFI 2023 application for SAM2 on land coming WInter Cereals and Rape this Autumn. Still unsure how repeat application might merge but presume will all work out OK. Janet & John last Friday were actually not that helpful with practical nuts and bolts answers but hen I appreciate last Friday was all about raising morale. I need to find the Sergeant Major / Quartermaster and not the General to find out how things are supposed to operate.

farmerm · Jan 31, 2024

Hindsight said:
I have a few applications in spreadsheet format. The SAM2 Winter Cereal / WInter Rape wheeze I have farms unsure, so have suggested we get SFI 2023 application in an up and away - many contain an area of AHL1 in lieu of failed rape/wheat and in place of Spring break crops, so really would like those active from March or April 1st. Then come back in a few weeks / months when maybe mor clarification of the SAM2 wheeze and the farmers I visit have thought it through a bit more with a second SFI 2023 application for SAM2 on land coming WInter Cereals and Rape this Autumn. Still unsure how repeat application might merge but presume will all work out OK. Janet & John last Friday were actually not that helpful with practical nuts and bolts answers but hen I appreciate last Friday was all about raising morale. I need to find the Sergeant Major / Quartermaster and not the General to find out how things are supposed to operate.

That seems sensible, it would just be good to know for sure we will get that second bite of the cherry option before September... What is you thinking regards SAM2 species to go alongside cereals

Zippy768 · Jan 31, 2024

Not sure I trust the idea that we will another chance to add options. Currently working on the idea that any changes will only be able on the anniversary.
SAM2 with all winter cereals is adding up to be one of the best payers here

Zippy768 · Jan 31, 2024

First thought was beans. But leaning to osr. Pennies for seed and easy to mix.
Not really planning on more than 2 species (cereal + one)

farmerm · Jan 31, 2024

Zippy768 said:
First thought was beans. But leaning to osr. Pennies for seed and easy to mix.
Not really planning on more than 2 species (cereal + one)

I’m in two minds for OSR. they could romp away and smother the crop or disappear to flea beetle. Could knock it back with grazing easy enough but if there is no second species then what

. Repay

tr250 · Jan 31, 2024

Sam2 is a cover crop. So the idea is to establish as soon at the combine is out the field to save autumn compaction/chemicals,fert so that nutrients don’t run off in winter it can be grazed then destroyed 6 weeks before planting a spring crop. To just drill a companion crop with a cereal to just claim the money will backfire spectacularly if you have any bg whatsoever and not to mention wrong.

Luke Cropwalker · Feb 1, 2024

Planning on SAM2 before all spring crops going forward. Will be sowing a low rate of phacelia and linseed, plus possibly a 3rd seed depending on cost. Any seed will have to go through a small seed applicator which will be on top of a sumo type cultivator ASAP after harvest. Following crops will be spring barley, spring beans or NUM3.

ploughman1963 · Feb 1, 2024

Zippy768 said:
First thought was beans. But leaning to osr. Pennies for seed and easy to mix.
Not really planning on more than 2 species (cereal + one)

We are on the same strategy as you - SAM2 on all cereals. Avoiding brassicas as we have OSR in rotation so looking at buckwheat with OSR and vetch with Wheat/Barley.

Badshot · Feb 1, 2024

when are you intending to plant the osr? I'd be surprised if October planted stuff will germinate and survive through a wheat pre em.

The options for the second species are limited.
Although you could do sp oats, then take out in the spring if they survive the winter.

farmerm said:
I’m in two minds for OSR. they could romp away and smother the crop or disappear to flea beetle. Could knock it back with grazing easy enough but if there is no second species then what . Repay

Badshot · Feb 1, 2024

tr250 said:
Sam2 is a cover crop. So the idea is to establish as soon at the combine is out the field to save autumn compaction/chemicals,fert so that nutrients don’t run off in winter it can be grazed then destroyed 6 weeks before planting a spring crop. To just drill a companion crop with a cereal to just claim the money will backfire spectacularly if you have any bg whatsoever and not to mention wrong.

I don't see it's wrong, or particularly risky tbh.
I'd like something other than beans though if I can.
Still investigating options for planting at the same time as my wheat, in October.
If it meets the aim, it is fine.

We need to be careful we don't go and hold plate this scheme with unworkable rules ourselves.

Derrick Hughes · Feb 1, 2024

Drone seeding may be worth a look
Get some cheap Brassica Seed on early enough

farmerm · Feb 1, 2024

Badshot said:
when are you intending to plant the osr? I'd be surprised if October planted stuff will germinate and survive through a wheat pre em.

The options for the second species are limited.
Although you could do sp oats, then take out in the spring if they survive the winter.

I don’t think you can do oats that would be 2 cereals. I wouldn’t be doing a pre en

edit scrub that, 2 from the same family is fine

farmerm · Feb 1, 2024

tr250 said:
Sam2 is a cover crop. So the idea is to establish as soon at the combine is out the field to save autumn compaction/chemicals,fert so that nutrients don’t run off in winter it can be grazed then destroyed 6 weeks before planting a spring crop. To just drill a companion crop with a cereal to just claim the money will backfire spectacularly if you have any bg whatsoever and not to mention wrong.

That may be the "idea" of cover crops but contractually we have to deliver actions with reasonable expectation of achieving the aims, purpose/idea is, contractually speaking, irrelevant. The "idea" of winter bird seed is for a spring drilled crop that carries seed to end of Feb but many are jumping on that with the intention of post harvest drilling, you could argue that is wrong because it is not in line with the "idea" and could backfire spectacularly in a hot dry autumn. RPA seem happy enough to accept it.

Yes I agree it would be foolish to commit to SAM2 in high blackgrass situations but we are not at that point here yet. It would soon get dropped from a field needed autumn herbicide stacking.

4course · Feb 1, 2024

Badshot said:
I don't see it's wrong, or particularly risky tbh.
I'd like something other than beans though if I can.
Still investigating options for planting at the same time as my wheat, in October.
If it meets the aim, it is fine.

We need to be careful we don't go and hold plate this scheme with unworkable rules ourselves.

why not beans? in winter cereals or vice versa fairly straight forward , anything else could well be annihaleted with a pre or post em and cause more problems , pre em hasnt touched the beans this year and it will only be 4 weeks before we can mop up anything else inc the beans i.e 1st march. and apply fert

rijowi64 · Feb 1, 2024

ploughman1963 said:
We are on the same strategy as you - SAM2 on all cereals. Avoiding brassicas as we have OSR in rotation so looking at buckwheat with OSR and vetch with Wheat/Barley.

I too have thought about vetch but my only concern is whether they will survive an autumn herbicide. Seems to be a bit of an unknown but we know beans normally will survive.

farmerm · Feb 1, 2024

ploughman1963 said:
We are on the same strategy as you - SAM2 on all cereals. Avoiding brassicas as we have OSR in rotation so looking at buckwheat with OSR and vetch with Wheat/Barley.

What are you thinking seed rate and application method with the vetch? Think there will be a lot of trial and error this autumn. I may end up trying different species and different seed rates in different tramlines in each field!

This year put my off growing OSR, like many others, rather legume/nectar fallow it.

I see one offering of a SAM2 mix with 2.00kg Yellow Mustard 2.00kg Fodder Radish 0.50kg Phacelia at about £25/ac pack. Spin on at say 1/4 of a full cover crop rate after drilling the cereal. Small seed at a rate in which you might even mix it and spin it with a slug pellet application? I have not considered how well that works with any pre/post em spray options though

There must be some regen farmers out there already using this mulitspecies winter cover approach who already have the answers?

Derrick Hughes · Feb 1, 2024

farmerm said:
What are you thinking seed rate and application method with the vetch? Think there will be a lot of trial and error this autumn. I may end up trying different species and different seed rates in different tramlines in each field!

This year put my off growing OSR, like many others, rather legume/nectar fallow it.

I see one offering of a SAM2 mix with 2.00kg Yellow Mustard 2.00kg Fodder Radish 0.50kg Phacelia at about £25/ac pack. Spin on at say 1/4 of a full cover crop rate after drilling the cereal. Small seed at a rate in which you might even mix it and spin it with a slug pellet application? I have not considered how well that works with any pre/post em spray options though

There must be some regen farmers out there already using this mulitspecies winter cover approach who already have the answers?

Straight Vestch we normany Sow at 20 kg for a Cover Crop , but if its with Rye then 5 to 10 kg , but make sure is Hairy Winter vetch

steveR · Feb 1, 2024

Sept drilling?

Vetch, Phacelia and mustard will all get going.

Derrick Hughes · Feb 1, 2024

And buy straights if you can , put the word mix on and the price seems to double , mustard seed is dirt cheap

SAM2 Mulitspecies cover, who is doing it and what's your plan?

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