Its about time to put the Great back in Briton and the United back in Kingdom

RobFZS · Dec 3, 2016

turbo said:
The bit that is starting to worry me is non of our politicians seem up to the job of getting us out of the eu with a good deal,not been a big fan of farage in the past but by god we need some people like him now.Just press the button and get on with it, I think the political elite think it will go away if they leave it long enough

It's just shown them up for what they are, a bunch of lazy arses trying anyway possible to get away with doing very little, instead of debating trade policies, ag policy, paying off the debt somehow, we have simpletons debating about banning Donald Trump coming in to the country and rubbish like that.

They hate brexit because for once in their life, if this goes wrong, they will get the boot for it, they go on about representative democracy, yet they're no more in the know about most subjects than anyone else so we might aswell have a direct democracy model in place to stop all this sh!t of mp's thinking they know better than their constituents, with constituencies getting bigger with less mp's, how can 1 person voice the view of 100k people

http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/we-need-to-take-back-control-from.html great blog post on the drooling morons in westminster who at the moment, are more concerned about being celebrities, eventually as the blog say's, professionals will come through to the top once all the drama queens get put off the sheer work load that the new era of home rule will provide.

RobFZS · Dec 3, 2016

sheepish said:
Membership fee is predominantly based on GNI. But Norway doesn't free trade agriculture, or I think fisheries.

i think that's because they're massively protectionist on their ag industry, that's their way of supporting farmers while being outside the cap

few quick examples of 200% tariff on eu cheese and 400% tariff on lamb! well they were like 2 years ago but i doubt it's changed, much

Henarar · Dec 3, 2016

arbel said:
Is warble fly still an issue/ I have not seen any on our cows for some years. Perhaps hobby cows don't get targeted?

no they eradicated them
just like they are doing with tb

FFS

Henarar · Dec 3, 2016

Agriculture a ‘litmus test’ for Brexit
The largest coalition of food producers in the UK’s history has come together for the first time to call for tariff-free access to the European single market and continued access to a competent and reliable workforce in order for British food and farming to flourish after Brexit. In a letter to the Prime Minister coordinated by the UK’s farming unions, 75 organisations pledged support for a positive, bold and ambitious vision for the sector post-Brexit. But they also warned that food security, food safety and hygiene, stewardship of the countryside and affordable food was at risk if Ministers failed to deliver continued access to labour and the best possible single market access. “Agriculture is a litmus-test for negotiations,” said NFU President Meurig Raymond. “If the Government can make British farming a success post-Brexit then it will be the clearest indication that the country can succeed outside Europe.” Read the letter at: http://bit.ly/2gUNSgx.
• NFU Director General Terry Jones appeared on Radio 5Live’s breakfast programme to talk about the NFU’s European work. You can listen again here: http://bbc.in/2guPKzT (44 minutes in).

jendan · Dec 3, 2016

arbel said:
Is warble fly still an issue/ I have not seen any on our cows for some years. Perhaps hobby cows don't get targeted?

It certainly worked,and virtually eradicated them.We were the only country in the world to use that chemical at such strengths.We were the only country in the world to get such huge numbers of BSE in cattle.

Danllan · Dec 3, 2016

jendan said:
It certainly worked,and virtually eradicated them.We were the only country in the world to use that chemical at such strengths.We were the only country in the world to get such huge numbers of BSE in cattle.

Hmm... of course you could be right, but I'm not entirely sure that reasoning is scientifically sound...

Ashtree · Dec 3, 2016

Danllan said:
And... you can tag on a reply to my months old request for an explanation as to where the 'democracy' is in the EU and its institutions, thanks.

It's completely impossible to analyse the so called "democratic deficiency" in the EU on a forum like this. There has been so much debate about this and so many studies done that it's best to read and analyse a few and then make ones own judgment. Personally I'm reasonably happy it's as democratic as the system of governance here in Ireland. The Irish system is largely based on what the British left behind when they departed the scene early in the last century.
I take this view here as well balanced and comparative of your own democracy.
http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

RobFZS · Dec 3, 2016

Danllan said:
Hmm... of course you could be right, but I'm not entirely sure that reasoning is scientifically sound...

False cause Fallacy

Danllan · Dec 3, 2016

Ashtree said:
It's completely impossible to analyse the so called "democratic deficiency" in the EU on a forum like this. There has been so much debate about this and so many studies done that it's best to read and analyse a few and then make ones own judgment. Personally I'm reasonably happy it's as democratic as the system of governance here in Ireland. The Irish system is largely based on what the British left behind when they departed the scene early in the last century.
I take this view here as well balanced and comparative of your own democracy.
http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

It is entirely possible to analyse EU 'democracy', and bearing in mind past discussion I am astonished that you would think otherwise on here.

Have you read the article in that link?

Ashtree · Dec 3, 2016

Danllan said:
It is entirely possible to analyse EU 'democracy', and bearing in mind past discussion I am astonished that you would think otherwise on here.

Have you read the article in that link?

Of course I have read it. Furthermore I haven't taken any part or sub part selectively to support any conclusion either way. It's a comparative thing. Compared to individual country democracies it's as good as most. Democracy can be taken to the Nth degree. When you get there you have chaos. We elect parliaments to act on our behalf. Parliament elects our governments. Thereafter the election process is largely parked and the government gets on with the executive actions on our behalf. Those actions need the imprimatur of parliament.

Of course the government could try to act undemocratically and seek to circumvent Parliament in which case the opinion of the courts might be sought by an individual if necessary.

You should be glad your courts are there to keep oversight of your current government as it would appear TM is well disposed towards acting unilaterally and undemocratically and illegally.

Danllan · Dec 3, 2016

Ashtree said:
Of course I have read it. Furthermore I haven't taken any part or sub part selectively to support any conclusion either way. It's a comparative thing. Compared to individual country democracies it's as good as most. Democracy can be taken to the Nth degree. When you get there you have chaos. We elect parliaments to act on our behalf. Parliament elects our governments. Thereafter the election process is largely parked and the government gets on with the executive actions on our behalf. Those actions need the imprimatur of parliament.

Of course the government could try to act undemocratically and seek to circumvent Parliament in which case the opinion of the courts might be sought by an individual if necessary.

You should be glad your courts are there to keep oversight of your current government as it would appear TM is well disposed towards acting unilaterally and undemocratically and illegally.

To have a 'daily' absolute democracy on every single issue would indeed be an unworkable chaos. But the occasional referendum is a good and healthy thing to make sure that the 'Elite' realise that they really aren't the ones with ultimate power.

TM certainly has not acted illegally, not yet, and yes it is a good thing we have Rule of Law here, and the Parliamentary Democracy you write of, which could change the law... because, even with Judges (perhaps especially with Judges), one must always ask 'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?' At the risk of this becoming a Latin tutorial, I'm minded of another tag 'Vox populi, vox Dei!' And that, for me as a democrat, is the most important one.

Old McDonald · Dec 3, 2016

turbo said:
The bit that is starting to worry me is non of our politicians seem up to the job of getting us out of the eu with a good deal,not been a big fan of farage in the past but by god we need some people like him now.Just press the button and get on with it, I think the political elite think it will go away if they leave it long enough

We have been over this ground before, and you did not answer my questions then, so here goes again. What would you do in the PM's position?

Cameron and his cabinet had no plan because they were totally convinced they would win. He also said he would stay on. Why would anyone else in the UK prepare a plan for what they would do? It would have been an utter waste of time and effort because "call me Dave" said he would carry on and deliver the referendum result.

How long would you, turbo, need to prepare a plan that is ideal for the whole 65million (or thereabouts) of the UK population. Find the people who are prepared to back that plan, knowing full well that they have 27 other countries determined to do you in, and probably a well organised plan because they knew that Brexit was a possibility?

What are your "red lines"? What are you prepared to negotiate upon? What concessions are readily given away, and what concessions do you hope to obtain from the opposition 27 and their negotiators?

When would you have triggered Art.50? Would you have been ready to begin immediate negotiations? Who had you available at that time?

RobFZS · Dec 3, 2016

Papers creating fake news again to stir so it seems...

turbo · Dec 3, 2016

Old McDonald said:
We have been over this ground before, and you did not answer my questions then, so here goes again. What would you do in the PM's position?

Cameron and his cabinet had no plan because they were totally convinced they would win. He also said he would stay on. Why would anyone else in the UK prepare a plan for what they would do? It would have been an utter waste of time and effort because "call me Dave" said he would carry on and deliver the referendum result.

How long would you, turbo, need to prepare a plan that is ideal for the whole 65million (or thereabouts) of the UK population. Find the people who are prepared to back that plan, knowing full well that they have 27 other countries determined to do you in, and probably a well organised plan because they knew that Brexit was a possibility?

What are your "red lines"? What are you prepared to negotiate upon? What concessions are readily given away, and what concessions do you hope to obtain from the opposition 27 and their negotiators?

When would you have triggered Art.50? Would you have been ready to begin immediate negotiations? Who had you available at that time?

Should of pressed the button straight away,what is there to negotiate the vote was to leave so get on with it any negotiations will just water down what people voted for as is being shown now with talk of keeping some form of free movement and paying for the privalage of belonging to the single market.

arbel · Dec 4, 2016

I was with a dairy farmer today, who is very switched on with regard to political matters. I should say at this point that is is more pro Bexit than I am!

He has a theory. The government and those ministers and civil servants who are apparently working towards implementing the vote to leave, do in fact have a very concise plan on how to handle the EU Brexit negotiations. The game plan is to do very little and to throw a few ideas into the ring to keep things moving on until March 2017. By that time, it is probable that events in the EU will have changed attitudes considerably and there will be no talk of paying any money to stay in the single market. Quite the reverse, they will be begging us to stay in!

arbel · Dec 4, 2016

Old McDonald said:
We have been over this ground before, and you did not answer my questions then, so here goes again. What would you do in the PM's position?

Cameron and his cabinet had no plan because they were totally convinced they would win. He also said he would stay on. Why would anyone else in the UK prepare a plan for what they would do? It would have been an utter waste of time and effort because "call me Dave" said he would carry on and deliver the referendum result.

How long would you, turbo, need to prepare a plan that is ideal for the whole 65million (or thereabouts) of the UK population. Find the people who are prepared to back that plan, knowing full well that they have 27 other countries determined to do you in, and probably a well organised plan because they knew that Brexit was a possibility?

What are your "red lines"? What are you prepared to negotiate upon? What concessions are readily given away, and what concessions do you hope to obtain from the opposition 27 and their negotiators?

When would you have triggered Art.50? Would you have been ready to begin immediate negotiations? Who had you available at that time?

Exactly! Cameron made a crass mistake and backed the wrong horse. I doubt that in reality he had any firm personal convictions one way or another. He just miscalculated the moment and the sink hole opened up in front of him. My bet is that he was convinced it would be a Remain vote and that he could slip into he Presidency of the EU when he was ready to step out of government here. Isn't the EU the safe haven that all useless politicians head for? Mandleson, Kinnock for example.

its yourself · Dec 4, 2016

arbel said:
I agree. It's not a very pleasant time. Once we are committed to leaving the EU, when Article 50 is invoked, it is to be hoped that the British people will come together and strive to make Brexit a success. Regardless of anything, we are, by and large, decent people.

We are very far down the road to place I hoped my family would never see again.

The place where "the innocent have nothing to fear".

It's long past being a country of decent people. The threats to march on courts, death threats to new MPS and the murder of another is ample evidence of that.

Billhook · Dec 4, 2016

arbel said:
Exactly! Isn't the EU the safe haven that all useless politicians head for? Mandleson, Kinnock for example.

Not forgetting of course Verhofstadt, Schultz, Barroso, Juncker, Tusk also the "Who are you? I don't mean to be rude but....." Herman van Rompuy

Who is in charge?

fudge · Dec 4, 2016

RobFZS said:
Papers creating fake news again to stir so it seems...

Of course newspapers have a right to publish what they want.
Bojo is a journalist, and journalists have a habit of speaking first and thinking second. They are clever enough to dress up their contradictory statements in fancy language. For example Bojo paid a visit to Boston during the referendum campaign in which he said the local economy "could"thrive if it adopted a London type model. Of course he and his supporters, including the telegraph for whom he works, neglected to mention theLondon economy is based on trade and is facilitated by high levels of immigration. The average Bostonian is implacably against any more immigration. Bojo's political competition, who of course include TM, are right to confront him with his own buffoonery and double speak. What better way of exposing a man of straw than giving him a responsible job such as British foreign secretary?

arbel · Dec 4, 2016

its yourself said:
We are very far down the road to place I hoped my family would never see again.

The place where "the innocent have nothing to fear".

It's long past being a country of decent people. The threats to march on courts, death threats to new MPS and the murder of another is ample evidence of that.

Indeed, even Nigel Farage now has full time security when outside!!

Its about time to put the Great back in Briton and the United back in Kingdom

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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