But perfectly acceptable to use insecticides, herbicides, pesticides, slug treatments, etc etc to kill millions of creatures just because they happen to be in the way of your crops? On a piece of land large enough to raise one bullock for slaughter you would be happy to kill thousands of creatures to grow plants? I have no problem killing something to eat, are you happy to sanction wholesale slaughter just to stop creatures eating your food?
Alarming aspirations from latest climate report...
- Thread starter white_stuffed
- Start date
Canada Farmer
Member
No forgetting the squirrels!!!☹
Canada Farmer
Member
You still didn't answer the question, where at what point do you or vegan extremists accept responsibility from where your food comes from?
Far to say when on Vancouver Island I can go to a number of restaurants fully aware of where they source their beef to the point that the next time I'm in BC and up that way I may well go and actually see the feedlots where the said beef comes from (Their reputation precedes them).
Where and when does a vegan extremist actually check the traceability to prove the food they eat that it meets or exceeds the alledged acceptable standards and or customers expectations? Or is their conscience oblivious.
So there are fewer people eating meat this year in the West but the remaining people have hugely increased their consumption? Are you really saying that? Or might it be that some of the surveys could be a bit "questionable"?
Suffolk Serf
Member
- Location
- Bury/Thetford
The more I get preached at by the BBC et al the more red meat I eat, so maybe others act the same, which has driven consumption upwards?
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
Actually most of the world eat MORE meat than we do in Europe. Back in the day, meat made up a higher proportion of all food than it does today.
That's mostly incorrect, medieval peasants ate relatively little meat, dependent on if they lived near a river they would've eaten fish instead but meat on the whole was mostly out of the reach for most peasants.
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
I'm not going back that far. Only to about 60 years ago. Diets change over time and with the availability or otherwise of imports. Also between town and country. But generally it is more correct than incorrect. There were local slaughter facilities all over the place in the 18th and 19thC, both in towns and every few miles, on farms. Animals were reared fat and the fat was eaten. No meal, whether breakfast, lunch or supper was complete without meat.
I would imagine Vegans would like to be able to trace where Vegan goods come from.
But at the end of the day if someone doesn't want to eat meat because they don't want to slaughter animals for it then that's on them, many people live on meat free diets and are perfectly healthy.
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
Now this could prove interesting.....
A company in the US looking to launch a satellite constellation that can map super-emmitters of CO² and CH⁴ to high resolution in real- time. I wonder if they'll point to cows being major culprits?
Carbon Mapper satellite network to find super-emitters
A public-private effort will launch sensors to track big releases of carbon dioxide and methane.
www.bbc.co.uk
A company in the US looking to launch a satellite constellation that can map super-emmitters of CO² and CH⁴ to high resolution in real- time. I wonder if they'll point to cows being major culprits?
E-mailed Roger Harrabin this morning. We managed a quick exchange before Roger went on leave. Whether or not he takes up the invitation, I would hope that Roger, as an impartial journalist of the highest standing, will read this thread and build the input from those on here into future reporting.
Good morning Roger
As an environmental campaigner, thank you for all of your efforts to publicise the need for action. It is time, however, to get the facts straight re ruminants.
Please spend some time reading through the below thread on The Farming Forum. You will see that we managed, briefly, to get Joseph Poore to join the discussion. Joseph soon left; he could see that all of his work was being systematically dismantled.
It is time well spent to read the whole thread, to understand how the CCC advice to Government re livestock is fundamentally flawed.
Quite how a self proclaimed vegan campaigner came to wield such influence is a mystery, fair play to Joseph, but the game is up.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...spirations-from-latest-climate-report.334556/
If you would like to visit some livestock farms, to discuss how cows are part of the solution not part of the problem, then please do get in touch.
***
Thanks
I’m just a reporter
I know there are differing views on cows – best wishes
***
I don’t think ‘just’ a reporter does your role justice. As a prominent reporter you are also an influencer. We would like to invite you to report on the other side of the argument.
***
I have – I was one of the first to do so from a farm near newbury
***
Thank you for that, not sure when it was but as we all know the debate is higher up the agenda now than it ever has been. To give one example, I would imagine that would have been before the role of methane was as well understood as now.
The invitation is there, as you will see from that thread there are plenty of farmers capable of thoroughly dismantling the Poore/ Nemecek evidence to the CCC.
***
Im on leave until May 3. Pease text me if urgent
***
Good morning Roger
As an environmental campaigner, thank you for all of your efforts to publicise the need for action. It is time, however, to get the facts straight re ruminants.
Please spend some time reading through the below thread on The Farming Forum. You will see that we managed, briefly, to get Joseph Poore to join the discussion. Joseph soon left; he could see that all of his work was being systematically dismantled.
It is time well spent to read the whole thread, to understand how the CCC advice to Government re livestock is fundamentally flawed.
Quite how a self proclaimed vegan campaigner came to wield such influence is a mystery, fair play to Joseph, but the game is up.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...spirations-from-latest-climate-report.334556/
If you would like to visit some livestock farms, to discuss how cows are part of the solution not part of the problem, then please do get in touch.
***
Thanks
I’m just a reporter
I know there are differing views on cows – best wishes
***
I don’t think ‘just’ a reporter does your role justice. As a prominent reporter you are also an influencer. We would like to invite you to report on the other side of the argument.
***
I have – I was one of the first to do so from a farm near newbury
***
Thank you for that, not sure when it was but as we all know the debate is higher up the agenda now than it ever has been. To give one example, I would imagine that would have been before the role of methane was as well understood as now.
The invitation is there, as you will see from that thread there are plenty of farmers capable of thoroughly dismantling the Poore/ Nemecek evidence to the CCC.
***
Im on leave until May 3. Pease text me if urgent
***
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
I doubted this very much and it spurred me to do some research. Here's what I found...
For 2 million years, humans ate meat and little else — study
Tel Aviv University researchers says Stone Age humans were apex predators, only moved to more plant-based diet 85,000 years ago
www.timesofisrael.com
A summary is that we ate nothing but meat until about 85,000 years ago.
UK consumption 1950-1990
Figure 3. Meat consumption in Britain, 1950-90 (ounces per person per...
Download scientific diagram | Meat consumption in Britain, 1950-90 (ounces per person per week). (Source: National Food Survey, 1955-91.) from publication: Democratizing Luxury and the Contentious "Invention of the Technological Chicken" in Britain | In 1950, poultry comprised 1 percent of the...
www.researchgate.net
Spanish data suggests that during the 15thC [you can't get more medieval than the 15thC], the average meat consumption per day in Barcelona town was 12 ounces. In 2018 it was barely 4.5 ounces per head per day. A massive reduction.
Beefing up Medieval Europeans: Meat Consumption in the 15th Century - Medievalists.net
One can find a lot of evidence that medieval Europeans were dining on beef, pork and mutton.
www.medievalists.net
QUOTE
This brings a total of 57,400 animals providing 6,988,000 lbs of meat per year for a city with 25,000 inhabitants. At almost 280 pounds of meat per person per year (including children and infants), the average daily consumption was 12 ounces per capita. By comparison, it has been estimated that in 2018 Spaniards were eating on average 4.5 ounces of meat per day
These statistics reveal that in late medieval Barcelona, people were eating large amounts of meat on average. However, such heavy meat consumption was not restricted to this city
In one early-15th-century English aristocratic household for which detailed records are available (that of the Earl of Warwick), members of the household received a staggering 3.8 pounds (1.7 kg) of assorted meats in a typical meat meal in the autumn and 2.4 pounds (1.1 kg) in the winter, in addition to 0.9 pounds (0.41 kg) of bread and 1⁄4 imperial gallon (1.1 L; 0.30 US gal) of beer or possibly wine (and there would have been two meat meals per day, five days a week, except during Lent). In the household of Henry Stafford in 1469, members received 2.1 pounds (0.95 kg) of meat per meal, and all others received 1.04 pounds (0.47 kg), and everyone was given 0.4 pounds (0.18 kg) of bread and 1⁄4 imperial gallon (1.1 L; 0.30 US gal) of alcohol.
END QUOTE
I do wish people would fact check their pronouncements rather than just blurt out what they want to believe, or want others to believe, in the hope that nobody else will fact check them.
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I doubted this very much and it spurred me to do some research. Here's what I found...
For 2 million years, humans ate meat and little else — study
Tel Aviv University researchers says Stone Age humans were apex predators, only moved to more plant-based diet 85,000 years ago
A summary is that we ate nothing but meat until about 85,000 years ago.
UK consumption 1950-1990
Figure 3. Meat consumption in Britain, 1950-90 (ounces per person per...
Download scientific diagram | Meat consumption in Britain, 1950-90 (ounces per person per week). (Source: National Food Survey, 1955-91.) from publication: Democratizing Luxury and the Contentious "Invention of the Technological Chicken" in Britain | In 1950, poultry comprised 1 percent of the...
Spanish data suggests that during the 15thC [you can't get more medieval than the 15thC], the average meat consumption per day in Barcelona town was 12 ounces. In 2018 it was barely 4.5 ounces per head per day. A massive reduction.
Beefing up Medieval Europeans: Meat Consumption in the 15th Century - Medievalists.net
One can find a lot of evidence that medieval Europeans were dining on beef, pork and mutton.www.medievalists.net
QUOTE
This brings a total of 57,400 animals providing 6,988,000 lbs of meat per year for a city with 25,000 inhabitants. At almost 280 pounds of meat per person per year (including children and infants), the average daily consumption was 12 ounces per capita. By comparison, it has been estimated that in 2018 Spaniards were eating on average 4.5 ounces of meat per day
These statistics reveal that in late medieval Barcelona, people were eating large amounts of meat on average. However, such heavy meat consumption was not restricted to this city
In one early-15th-century English aristocratic household for which detailed records are available (that of the Earl of Warwick), members of the household received a staggering 3.8 pounds (1.7 kg) of assorted meats in a typical meat meal in the autumn and 2.4 pounds (1.1 kg) in the winter, in addition to 0.9 pounds (0.41 kg) of bread and 1⁄4 imperial gallon (1.1 L; 0.30 US gal) of beer or possibly wine (and there would have been two meat meals per day, five days a week, except during Lent). In the household of Henry Stafford in 1469, members received 2.1 pounds (0.95 kg) of meat per meal, and all others received 1.04 pounds (0.47 kg), and everyone was given 0.4 pounds (0.18 kg) of bread and 1⁄4 imperial gallon (1.1 L; 0.30 US gal) of alcohol.
END QUOTE
I do wish people would fact check their pronouncements rather than just blurt out what they want to believe, or want others to believe, in the hope that nobody else will fact check them.
Urban population =/= Rural population, Land working lower tier peasantry ate mostly grains, bread and whatever they could fish or hunt in the local area
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
Nonsense. They produced the meat and it was slaughtered locally on selected farms. Near me there was one actually next door, now long derelict. About three miles down the road there was another larger one, this time the farm is modern and thriving today. These ran for probably hundreds of years and were extremely fertile due to the blood and animal waste spread on the land.
The rural population was better supplied and fed than urban populations because they supplied the meat to the towns. There wasn't much of a rural population that didn't work the land until the Industrial Revolution a couple of centuries later and towns had a tiny fraction of today's numbers living there.
I've just proven that you are mistaken to a more remarkable extent than I thought probable. Sorry to have smashed your preconceptions. Live and learn.
Dietary Requirements of a Medieval Peasant
stores.renstore.com
"The European medieval diet was largely determined by social class. For the majority of the of the people, peasants, a large portion of their daily diet was made up of grains such as wheat, rye, oats or barley(carbohydrates). The grains were boiled whole in a soup or stew, ground into flour and made into bread, or malted and brewed into ale. Estimates from the late Middle Ages indicated that a gallon of ale a day was not unusual, but the actual alcohol in the drink was low. Protein was usually provided legumes such as beans, peas or lentils, fish where available, or on very rare occasions, meat such as poultry, pork, or beef. Additional nutrients were provided by seasonal vegetables and fruits. The peasant's diet rates high on modern nutrition standards. But seasonal fluctuations in food availability and poor harvests often caused long periods of very poor nutrition. "
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
FOUR TIMES the meat consumption in the 15thC, or more in the English example, per head compared with today. This is from historical records not from conjecture.
Most of the animals produced would've been taken by the Local Nobility hence why you get the huge amounts of meat eaten in the aristocratic household, the average peasant lived off grains, ryebread, pottage etc. meat was a rarity for the majority of peasants
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
So you keep saying, yet the town peasants are proven to have eaten four times or more the current daily meat consumption.
Where are your historical records? Just because someone once assumed something to be the case, and it has been repeated for years, does not make it so. The historical records prove that 15thC people ate copious amounts of meat.
Depending on their location in the UK I would expect them to have eaten more mutton and pork than beef. Almost all rural farmsteads would have had a salting and curing room and meat would have hung from the rafters in shared family and animal accommodation during that period. Food would have been shared, on larger estates, with the workers on the in-hand farms. Outlying rented farms, such as mine was, would either kill at home or use a nearby slaughter farm, such as I previously described, and take the carcasses home to be processed and preserved for later use.
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People living in towns weren't mostly peasants.
Not denying that peasants had meat but it wasn't copious amounts of meat.