Ivermectin , covid cure

Mr Mackay said:

Nat Geographics take on it if anyone wants a look

The shaky science behind ivermectin as a COVID-19 cure

Studies are inconclusive and misinformation is rampant. But many Americans now see a deworming medicine as a go-to drug to prevent and fight the Delta variant.

www.nationalgeographic.com

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There is rampant disinformation from both sides. By far the most comes from extremely well financed sources who are desperate for nothing off-patent to be proved useful. Billions of Dollars are at stake and people play very dirty for a fraction of the money at stake here. Just look at the Epipen issue I linked to in a post above.

The anti-vaccers are led by a whole lot of nut-jobs but there are also very legitimate concerns about the vaccines, especially in the original claims of tests and safety. Not the magnetism, microchips, DNA changes, and 'war-crimes' rubbish of course, which is peddled by nutters. There is somewhat of a political divide in the USA of course, with rabid right wingers and supporters of Trump being more likely to be anti-vax and mask-wearing if not pro-ivermectin. Most peculiar and not generally a pattern seen in the rest of the world, maybe with the exception of Brazil.

I'm afraid I am just about to run out of time on this and the forum in general so I will have to make this my last post I guess.

It was obvious that Pharmaceutical companies would make a bomb from their vaccines although Oxford university always intended to supply theirs at cost and so partnered with AstraZeneca for this very reason. It did not surprise me to see disinformation arriving on scene regarding the safety and efficacy of the AZ vaccine so soon because there is a certain anti-British sentiment in the states in some quarters if you look hard enough for it. Throw in the obvious conflict regarding it's cost compared to the other vaccines and it was obvious there would be plenty said about it very early on.

Having known people involved in pretty high end research for various companies and the kind of work they end up doing (much of it mindlessly repetitive) the stance of Merck or anyone else when it comes to novel uses for existing drugs did not surprise me one bit as it is very common for companies to develop or 'discover' new molecules and then test them exhaustively on all kinds of organisms in vitro to see if there is any effect. There is little doubt in my mind that Merck have probably done this on ivermectin decades ago to see what other commercial uses it might offer them. Big pharmaceutical companies don't tend to announce the results of these studies because to do so would actually be aiding their competitors so it is all held behind a wall of silence. Ditto the millions of novel molecules they develop and then patent even if they prove to have no immediate commercial use. They do this of course to stop their competitors utilising 'their' products.

As it stands, I am still yet to see any genuine research indicating that ivermectin has any application for covid-19 and the multitude of meta-analyses and the like that have been brought to the attention of the online world haven't done much to persuade me there ever will be. We can but wait and learn. We are all undoubtedly aware of a myriad of studies being done on a whole host of drugs and we can only await their results in time. Back in January I had to do a pretty heavyweight piece of academic work on covid-19 which explored a range of drugs being used for treating people with covid-19 so all of this territory is already intimately familiar to me.

I will remain watching the news with interest, mostly because I do wonder if the doctors who were falsely claiming they had found miracle cures will ever receive censure at a professional level in the same way that that anti-vaccination nurse did some months ago.

It has been an interesting thread. Thank you to those who took the time to add to it.

ollie989898 said:

I will remain watching the news with interest, mostly because I do wonder if the doctors who were falsely claiming they had found miracle cures will ever receive censure at a professional level in the same way that that anti-vaccination nurse did some months ago.

It has been an interesting thread. Thank you to those who took the time to add to it.

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I have yet to see one claim a miracle cure. They are claiming a degree of efficacy, but the same or better degree of efficacy was claimed and hoped for the vaccines. While they are very useful tools, you obviously know like the rest of us by now, that they have not lived up to their expectation. In medicine and health, nothing is certain. What bugs me and many others is the absolute unwillingness to try stuff out, but more than that the absolute obstruction to such research by those with the ability to do so. More than that, the disinformation campaign to stop it in its tracks. One less than subtle example is to repeatedly call ivermectin "horse dewormer', which it partly is of course. But we all know that every medicine we use for animals is also used for treating humans. We are 'animals'. We also all know, or should do, that it is common for medicines to be effective for more more than one unrelated ailment and that it is not uncommon to find new utility for existing drugs.

Yes there are whack-jobs spreading disinformation about vaccines as well. Yet we have several major countries and an area of India, that alone has the population of one of the biggest countries in the world, using ivermectin as a front line medicine in home-packs and the incidence of covid dropping very rapidly and apparently as a result. This is not allowed to even make the news in the West.

idgni said:

Ivermectin: Northern Ireland seizures of unproven drug used for Covid

More than 8,500 of the tablets have been seized coming into Northern Ireland since 2020.

www.bbc.co.uk

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See bbc are still linking to their false reporting of the false story from American about horse dewormer overdoses.

No longer a dead horse story... Ivermectin seems to have worked for shergar

I’ll ask on here because I guess most posters perhaps have a more balanced view than the brain washed masses.

I also am no anti vaxxer before someone accuses me.

why are many people refusing the jab? These people include well educated and professional individuals….. nurses, doctors and consultants, even in quite large numbers.

I’m not against those that refuse in any way, it’s their choice, I actually regret having mine tbh because I’ve had chest pain since. I’ll admit I can’t pin the cause down to the jab but I feel the obfuscation of the facts is making me very doubtful over the whole affair.

bit of a disjointed sort of post but I wondered if anyone feels the same (or at least is prepared to put their head above the parapet and admit it).

milkloss said:

I’ll ask on here because I guess most posters perhaps have a more balanced view than the brain washed masses.

I also am no anti vaxxer before someone accuses me.

why are many people refusing the jab? These people include well educated and professional individuals….. nurses, doctors and consultants, even in quite large numbers.

I’m not against those that refuse in any way, it’s their choice, I actually regret having mine tbh because I’ve had chest pain since. I’ll admit I can’t pin the cause down to the jab but I feel the obfuscation of the facts is making me very doubtful over the whole affair.

bit of a disjointed sort of post but I wondered if anyone feels the same (or at least is prepared to put their head above the parapet and admit it).

Click to expand...

There's lots of reasons but two primary ones I think.

Firstly there's a whole lot of disinformation from rabid anti-vaxers that are pure fantasy, exaggeration and sometimes almost evil intent. People listen and can't distinguish between truth and lies and err towards feeling safer by avoiding the vaccine 'just in case'. Some are actually persuaded to believe and perpetuate the lies, like the 'retreat' or something in Wales that forbid access to vaccinated people because "they spread disease to the unvaccinated". No, I'm not making that up.

Secondly the initial reassurances that the vaccine would stop the vast majority getting covid or spreading it were exaggerated and proved [at least] overly optimistic. But mostly the claims and reassurances that the vaccines were fully tested and perfectly safe has proven to be quite untrue. There is a very significant risk of side effects from all the vaccines used so far and many thousands have died as a direct result. While the sensible ones among us can put the risk to benefit ratio in proportion and know that the vaccine presents a far lower risk than the viral infection, a significant minority cannot compute that and believe that they might be the lucky ones that if they get covid, they will not get ill or die from it. Therefore in their mind the vaccine presents an additional risk, not a mitigation of existing risks.


Now that covid is endemic rather than an epidemic they should realise that they will indeed eventually get covid and not be able to avoid it long term. However until someone close to them dies or nearly dies, they are unlikely to be convinced enough to get vaccinated at this late stage.


That being the case there is, as much as ever there was, an urgent need for an early intervention drug that stops the virus in its tracks before people get really ill or get long covid. Long covid is just as much a risk to the vaccinated-infected as it is to the unvaccinated.
One very expensive drug has just been approved for limited use in the UK currently. A monoclonal antibody. The viability of that drug, in a commercial sense, as with others in the pipeline, depends very much on there not being an alternative dirt-cheap equally effective alternative.

milkloss said:

I’ll ask on here because I guess most posters perhaps have a more balanced view than the brain washed masses.

I also am no anti vaxxer before someone accuses me.

why are many people refusing the jab? These people include well educated and professional individuals….. nurses, doctors and consultants, even in quite large numbers.

I’m not against those that refuse in any way, it’s their choice, I actually regret having mine tbh because I’ve had chest pain since. I’ll admit I can’t pin the cause down to the jab but I feel the obfuscation of the facts is making me very doubtful over the whole affair.

bit of a disjointed sort of post but I wondered if anyone feels the same (or at least is prepared to put their head above the parapet and admit it).

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I was talking to a few people just the other day about this. And every one of them could name quite afew people who had pretty bad reactions to the vaccine.

None of us had got covid as far as we knew. All of us had been vaccinated.

But there many in our locality who are feeling unwell or not quite right after getting the jab.

Can't really blame people who hear these first hand accounts to be wary

marco said:

I was talking to a few people just the other day about this. And every one of them could name quite afew people who had pretty bad reactions to the vaccine.

None of us had got covid as far as we knew. All of us had been vaccinated.

But there many in our locality who are feeling unwell or not quite right after getting the jab.

Can't really blame people who hear these first hand accounts to be wary

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The stories are much exaggerated and really shouldn't be repeated in that way. Yes, a reasonably high proportion of people have had minor reactions and a few have had symptoms for a few weeks. Very few have had a serious debilitating reaction and a tiny fraction of the tens of millions vaccinated have had a critical reaction that required hospitalisation. Compare that with the hundreds of unvaccinated people still dying daily in the UK alone from complications arising from the virus itself.

Cowabunga said:

There is a very significant risk of side effects from all the vaccines used so far and many thousands have died as a direct result

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Cowabunga said:

The stories are much exaggerated and really shouldn't be repeated in that way. Yes, a reasonably high proportion of people have had minor reactions and a few have had symptoms for a few weeks. Very few have had a serious debilitating reaction and a tiny fraction of the tens of millions vaccinated have had a critical reaction that required hospitalisation. Compare that with the hundreds of unvaccinated people still dying daily in the UK alone from complications arising from the virus itself.

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Wow you've changed your tune.

Cowabunga said:

There's lots of reasons but two primary ones I think.

Firstly there's a whole lot of disinformation from rabid anti-vaxers that are pure fantasy, exaggeration and sometimes almost evil intent. People listen and can't distinguish between truth and lies and err towards feeling safer by avoiding the vaccine 'just in case'. Some are actually persuaded to believe and perpetuate the lies, like the 'retreat' or something in Wales that forbid access to vaccinated people because "they spread disease to the unvaccinated". No, I'm not making that up.

Secondly the initial reassurances that the vaccine would stop the vast majority getting covid or spreading it were exaggerated and proved [at least] overly optimistic. But mostly the claims and reassurances that the vaccines were fully tested and perfectly safe has proven to be quite untrue. There is a very significant risk of side effects from all the vaccines used so far and many thousands have died as a direct result. While the sensible ones among us can put the risk to benefit ratio in proportion and know that the vaccine presents a far lower risk than the viral infection, a significant minority cannot compute that and believe that they might be the lucky ones that if they get covid, they will not get ill or die from it. Therefore in their mind the vaccine presents an additional risk, not a mitigation of existing risks.


Now that covid is endemic rather than an epidemic they should realise that they will indeed eventually get covid and not be able to avoid it long term. However until someone close to them dies or nearly dies, they are unlikely to be convinced enough to get vaccinated at this late stage.


That being the case there is, as much as ever there was, an urgent need for an early intervention drug that stops the virus in its tracks before people get really ill or get long covid. Long covid is just as much a risk to the vaccinated-infected as it is to the unvaccinated.
One very expensive drug has just been approved for limited use in the UK currently. A monoclonal antibody. The viability of that drug, in a commercial sense, as with others in the pipeline, depends very much on there not being an alternative dirt-cheap equally effective alternative.

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They will not be 'the lucky ones' if they survive. They are much much more likely to have mild symptoms than serious and would be extremely unlucky to die.

Cowabunga said:

There's lots of reasons but two primary ones I think.

Firstly there's a whole lot of disinformation from rabid anti-vaxers that are pure fantasy, exaggeration and sometimes almost evil intent. People listen and can't distinguish between truth and lies and err towards feeling safer by avoiding the vaccine 'just in case'. Some are actually persuaded to believe and perpetuate the lies, like the 'retreat' or something in Wales that forbid access to vaccinated people because "they spread disease to the unvaccinated". No, I'm not making that up.

Secondly the initial reassurances that the vaccine would stop the vast majority getting covid or spreading it were exaggerated and proved [at least] overly optimistic. But mostly the claims and reassurances that the vaccines were fully tested and perfectly safe has proven to be quite untrue. There is a very significant risk of side effects from all the vaccines used so far and many thousands have died as a direct result. While the sensible ones among us can put the risk to benefit ratio in proportion and know that the vaccine presents a far lower risk than the viral infection, a significant minority cannot compute that and believe that they might be the lucky ones that if they get covid, they will not get ill or die from it. Therefore in their mind the vaccine presents an additional risk, not a mitigation of existing risks.


Now that covid is endemic rather than an epidemic they should realise that they will indeed eventually get covid and not be able to avoid it long term. However until someone close to them dies or nearly dies, they are unlikely to be convinced enough to get vaccinated at this late stage.


That being the case there is, as much as ever there was, an urgent need for an early intervention drug that stops the virus in its tracks before people get really ill or get long covid. Long covid is just as much a risk to the vaccinated-infected as it is to the unvaccinated.
One very expensive drug has just been approved for limited use in the UK currently. A monoclonal antibody. The viability of that drug, in a commercial sense, as with others in the pipeline, depends very much on there not being an alternative dirt-cheap equally effective alternative.

Click to expand...

Many thousands have died from side effects of the vaccine???

Where did you get that from?

Cowabunga said:

There's lots of reasons but two primary ones I think.

Firstly there's a whole lot of disinformation from rabid anti-vaxers that are pure fantasy, exaggeration and sometimes almost evil intent. People listen and can't distinguish between truth and lies and err towards feeling safer by avoiding the vaccine 'just in case'. Some are actually persuaded to believe and perpetuate the lies, like the 'retreat' or something in Wales that forbid access to vaccinated people because "they spread disease to the unvaccinated". No, I'm not making that up.

Secondly the initial reassurances that the vaccine would stop the vast majority getting covid or spreading it were exaggerated and proved [at least] overly optimistic. But mostly the claims and reassurances that the vaccines were fully tested and perfectly safe has proven to be quite untrue. There is a very significant risk of side effects from all the vaccines used so far and many thousands have died as a direct result. While the sensible ones among us can put the risk to benefit ratio in proportion and know that the vaccine presents a far lower risk than the viral infection, a significant minority cannot compute that and believe that they might be the lucky ones that if they get covid, they will not get ill or die from it. Therefore in their mind the vaccine presents an additional risk, not a mitigation of existing risks.


Now that covid is endemic rather than an epidemic they should realise that they will indeed eventually get covid and not be able to avoid it long term. However until someone close to them dies or nearly dies, they are unlikely to be convinced enough to get vaccinated at this late stage.


That being the case there is, as much as ever there was, an urgent need for an early intervention drug that stops the virus in its tracks before people get really ill or get long covid. Long covid is just as much a risk to the vaccinated-infected as it is to the unvaccinated.
One very expensive drug has just been approved for limited use in the UK currently. A monoclonal antibody. The viability of that drug, in a commercial sense, as with others in the pipeline, depends very much on there not being an alternative dirt-cheap equally effective alternative.

Click to expand...

Interesting response…. One that may have more interest in promoting a particular drug rather then answering the question directly. I wasn’t asking about cults or religious ideologies etc, I was interested in people that are trained and involved in the system that is forcing/urging/persuading the vaccines on us.

In the US for example why mandate vax for all federal employees but NOT the us postal service or senate and their employees? Why are maternity units shutting down in California because the staff don’t want the compulsory jab?. What about the celebrity awards thing where they wore no masks except for the staff (also Vaxxed btw) who were made to wear masks as they served the event.
Obama had a massive party…. No masks.

what’s good for the goose is good for the gander and, using the states as an example, the hypocrisy is frightening, and we’re not usually far behind with this sort of thing in the Uk.

tepapa said:

Wow you've changed your tune.

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How’s that? There is no conflict whatsoever. If you think that I’m anti-vaccination you are way off track. I’m a realist and follow the facts.

milkloss said:

Interesting response…. One that may have more interest in promoting a particular drug rather then answering the question directly. I wasn’t asking about cults or religious ideologies etc, I was interested in people that are trained and involved in the system that is forcing/urging/persuading the vaccines on us.

In the US for example why mandate vax for all federal employees but NOT the us postal service or senate and their employees? Why are maternity units shutting down in California because the staff don’t want the compulsory jab?. What about the celebrity awards thing where they wore no masks except for the staff (also Vaxxed btw) who were made to wear masks as they served the event.
Obama had a massive party…. No masks.

what’s good for the goose is good for the gander and, using the states as an example, the hypocrisy is frightening, and we’re not usually far behind with this sort of thing in the Uk.

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I answered your question. I have zero interest in whether you liked or agreed with it. Neither do I care for one particular drug over another. What I do object to is misinformation and disinformation from wherever it may germinate. It causes harm, as you indicate above.

Humble Village Farmer said:

Many thousands have died from side effects of the vaccine???

Where did you get that from?

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Official figures. It is a tiny proportion of total vaccinations worlwide.

Cowabunga said:

Official figures. It is a tiny proportion of total vaccinations worlwide.

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I feel official figures aren't a true representation of what's happened on the ground. Many were unaware of the reporting system (yellow card?) and I very much doubt places like India have a particularly good system for reporting.

milkloss said:

I’ll ask on here because I guess most posters perhaps have a more balanced view than the brain washed masses.

I also am no anti vaxxer before someone accuses me.

why are many people refusing the jab? These people include well educated and professional individuals….. nurses, doctors and consultants, even in quite large numbers.

I’m not against those that refuse in any way, it’s their choice, I actually regret having mine tbh because I’ve had chest pain since. I’ll admit I can’t pin the cause down to the jab but I feel the obfuscation of the facts is making me very doubtful over the whole affair.

bit of a disjointed sort of post but I wondered if anyone feels the same (or at least is prepared to put their head above the parapet and admit it).

Click to expand...

Lets start with the fact that over 90% have taken the jab, that's a bloody good uptake, how does that compare to other medical interventions? Take one example, less than 70% of eligible women ever attend potentially life saving breast cancer screening, including well educated and professional individuals. It is not that those educated professionals not taking it known something us 90% don't, it is that they are human and human behavior can be highly irrational. Fear and mistrust in authority account for the bulk of those not yet jabbed.

milkloss said:

I feel official figures aren't a true representation of what's happened on the ground. Many were unaware of the reporting system (yellow card?) and I very much doubt places like India have a particularly good system for reporting.

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I don't know whether India has yellow card, either, but side effects of all the various vaccines are being recorded. I have been surprised by how many in the UK report their state of health via the Zoe app, too


There is plenty of sensitive checking for negative outcomes for all sorts of health matters, and the ones monitoring covid are all keeping tabs in the real world ~ uninflated by social media gossip and (potentially) mischief.