Regerative grazing sheep breed?

ilovebalingtoo · Jul 3, 2022

What breeds of sheep would suit a regenerative grazing approach, obviously a shedder but is an easycare the answer or something like a wiltshire horn more suitable for a hardy type grazer of more rough pasture?

S J H · Jul 3, 2022

ilovebalingtoo said:
What breeds of sheep would suit a regenerative grazing approach, obviously a shedder but is an easycare the answer or something like a wiltshire horn more suitable for a hardy type grazer of more rough pasture?

I think scald will be the biggest problem, so something as resistant to that as possible.

unlacedgecko · Jul 3, 2022

ilovebalingtoo said:
What breeds of sheep would suit a regenerative grazing approach, obviously a shedder but is an easycare the answer or something like a wiltshire horn more suitable for a hardy type grazer of more rough pasture?

Set your system. Maintain the same system and run a closed flock. Suitable animals will thrive, and unsuitable animals will fall out the bottom for cull.

There are some very successful regen farmers using woolly sheep.

BAF · Jul 3, 2022

Now I know I bang on about Southdowns a bit because I'm cursed with breeding a few of the damned things but 1 thing they do very well is eat grass and do very well off grass. I've been over stocked this spring/summer and theyve been eating weeds and stones mainly and rearing lambs off their backs. They're all tipping along at a good 3.5 bcs. They would suit a regenerative system very well. If you're selling them dead you won't have to worry about the stigma of woolly sheep going through the market!

neilo · Jul 3, 2022

ilovebalingtoo said:
What breeds of sheep would suit a regenerative grazing approach, obviously a shedder but is an easycare the answer or something like a wiltshire horn more suitable for a hardy type grazer of more rough pasture?

Why ‘obviously a shedder’?:scratchead:

Broaden your options, rather than fall for the sales hype.

Wool shedding would be great, but not if it comes at the expense of productivity. There are plenty of woolly sheep that would be every bit as suitable, if indeed any sheep are if you want to graze long grass that’s been rested for 70+ days.

CopperBeech · Jul 3, 2022

Define ‘regen system’ it is a broad church.

My first experience of farming in a hardcore regenerative way was about 8 years ago, with North Country Mules of all things.

Ultimately it was found that wool shedders were better suited for a range of reasons, not least of all the reduction in reliance on chemicals (mainly fly cover and wormers).

But as said regen ag is a broad church ..... so do you mean grazing long covers ? Prospering in large mobs ?

CopperBeech · Jul 3, 2022

neilo said:
Why ‘obviously a shedder’?:scratchead:

Broaden your options, rather than fall for the sales hype.
Wool shedding would be great, but not if it comes at the expense of productivity. There are plenty of woolly sheep that would be every bit as suitable, if indeed any sheep are if you want to graze long grass that’s been rested for 70+ days.

The issue may be seen to be the use of chemical fly covers - ie cyper and click, both of which have negative effects on soil microbiology, dung beetles etc etc.

So for a moment or two calm down with the shedder bashing and look at the bigger picture.

Regen ag doesn’t necessarily mean grazing long cover with sheep either.

CopperBeech · Jul 3, 2022

BAF said:
Now I know I bang on about Southdowns a bit because I'm cursed with breeding a few of the damned things but 1 thing they do very well is eat grass and do very well off grass. I've been over stocked this spring/summer and theyve been eating weeds and stones mainly and rearing lambs off their backs. They're all tipping along at a good 3.5 bcs. They would suit a regenerative system very well. If you're selling them dead you won't have to worry about the stigma of woolly sheep going through the market!

The thought of grazing Southdown’s in large numbers with no fly cover in tall herbal lays with a lot of fly pressure, doesn’t sound like very much fun at all. Without working out where exactly you’d get any number of commercially bred Southdown’s from.

neilo · Jul 3, 2022

CopperBeech said:
The issue may be seen to be the use of chemical fly covers - ie cyper and click, both of which have negative effects on soil microbiology, dung beetles etc etc.

So for a moment or two calm down with the shedder bashing and look at the bigger picture.

Regen ag doesn’t necessarily mean grazing long cover with sheep either.

I’m not ‘shedder bashing’, just questioning why the OP has apparently ruled out plenty of efficient breeds on the premise that he needs something that is ‘obviously a shedder’?

CopperBeech · Jul 3, 2022

neilo said:
I’m not ‘shedder bashing’, just questioning why the OP has apparently ruled out plenty of efficient breeds on the premise that he needs something that is ‘obviously a shedder’?

See my above post ??? Fly cover doesn’t really fit in with the regen ag thing. That would be the main reason I would assume .......

Yes plenty of folk are doing ‘regen ag’ with all sorts, but it could be argued that lots are actually using that title with little to back it up.

neilo · Jul 3, 2022

CopperBeech said:
See my above post ??? Fly cover doesn’t really fit in with the regen ag thing. That would be the main reason I would assume .......

Yes plenty of folk are doing ‘regen ag’ with all sorts, but it could be argued that lots are actually using that title with little to back it up.

My apologies, I’m not a full disciple, but can you explain to me how Clik, which is applied to the sheep and binds to the lanolin in the fleece, gets into the soil to such a degree that it decimates soil biology?
I can understand it with insecticides or OPs that wash off steadily in the rain of course, but remain to be convinced on Clik.

Or is it just a case of being labelled as a ‘chemical’ by the bearded experts, so therefore must be bad?

CopperBeech · Jul 3, 2022

neilo said:
My apologies, I’m not a full disciple, but can you explain to me how Clik, which is applied to the sheep and binds to the lanolin in the fleece, gets into the soil to such a degree that it decimates soil biology?
I can understand it with insecticides or OPs that wash off steadily in the rain of course, but remain to be convinced on Clik.

Or is it just a case of being labelled as a ‘chemical’ by the bearded experts, so therefore must be bad?

I believe that it persists in the sheep’s sh!t, and has a similar effect on dung beetles in the ‘larval’ stage as it doesn’t to blowfly in the ‘larval’ stage (ie maggots). I am not an expert but I believe that is the claim that is made.

Quite how it gets from on the sheep to in the sheep I don’t know, I’m not an expert, and I’m not even sure if it’s correct or not.

But can only assume that the leaving toward shedders in the above post is due at least partly to that kind of stuff ?

CopperBeech · Jul 3, 2022

Ps the person to ask doesn’t have a beard, they are indeed a woman, no beard, but a lot of knowledge.

neilo · Jul 3, 2022

CopperBeech said:
I believe that it persists in the sheep’s sh!t, and has a similar effect on dung beetles in the ‘larval’ stage as it doesn’t to blowfly in the ‘larval’ stage (ie maggots). I am not an expert but I believe that is the claim that is made.

Quite how it gets from on the sheep to in the sheep I don’t know, I’m not an expert, and I’m not even sure if it’s correct or not.

But can only assume that the leaving toward shedders in the above post is due at least partly to that kind of stuff ?

Presumably it must get ‘into the sheep’ in some way, or there wouldn’t be a 40 day meat withdrawal.

It was a serious question though, as I’ve never seen any concrete evidence of it’s effect on soil biology, just ‘ya boo, it’s a chemical’ ramblings.

CopperBeech · Jul 3, 2022

neilo said:
Presumably it must get ‘into the sheep’ in some way, or there wouldn’t be a 40 day meat withdrawal.

It was a serious question though, as I’ve never seen any concrete evidence of it’s effect on soil biology, just ‘ya boo, it’s a chemical’ ramblings.

I would assume to to, I just won’t pretend to understand quite how that works. But if you consider it can stop maggots developing biting mouth parts when eggs are laid on that sheep up to three months later ....... from chucking 20 ml on the animal ...... it does make sense that it would act similarly on things eating the sh!t. The ivermectin wormers thing deffo holds true, so assume the click thing does also.

I’ve never actually heard it used by shedding folk as a sales pitch, it’s just filed in my head. It’s something I’ve been looking at the last few years.

Bury the Trash · Jul 4, 2022

CopperBeech said:
See my above post ??? Fly cover doesn’t really fit in with the regen ag thing. That would be the main reason I would assume .......

Yes plenty of folk are doing ‘regen ag’ with all sorts, but it could be argued that lots are actually using that title with little to back it up.

perhaps worm drench doesnt fit in with it either ? but shedder lambs will need it on sheep ground , and consequently shitty tails if not caught quick will need watching for strike as well.

CopperBeech · Jul 4, 2022

Bury the Trash said:
perhaps worm drench doesnt fit in with it either ? but shedder lambs will need it on sheep ground , and consequently shitty tails if not caught quick will need watching for strike as well.

The issue is ivermectin, other groups are ok with regard to the dung beetles etc.

I think all sheep farmers should be striving to reduce the number of drenches, regardless of that system that you run.

On clean ground with a sensible rotational grazing system etc it should be possible to get down to pretty much no drenches.

On sheep only ground that’s not so easy, but the right kind of sheep and grazing system should be able to drop some.

I can’t comment on shitty tails because we don’t have them.

Al R · Jul 4, 2022

Welsh, blackies, pretty much any hill breed I would assume would do a good job plus they can be bought in large numbers!

Wood field · Jul 4, 2022

Funny thing this regenerative agriculture,
Take our place , hill/ moor farm 900-1200 ft
Thin soils etc etc
We went from cattle to all sheep due to wintering costs ( now we’ve a handful of galloways)
There’s a few tree belts mostly planted by previous owner but on the whole it’s pp
Now.. we don’t use fertiliser just bedding muck spread back to mowing meadows
Some of the fields are grazed bare at the minute due to long cold dry weather ie slow grass growth and 30 acres shut down for mowing
If the sheep need a worm or fluke drench then they get it
If I need to feed cake in winter then they get it (or molasses or beet)
Reading on the net about regenerative ag, cover crops are almost always mentioned or “ herbal leys” etc but on a farm like ours they won’t work ( see the threads on elms and sfi)
I guess what I am trying to say or ask is .., what is regenerative ag
Is it the preserve of lowland farmers and arable farms to make themselves feel cozy and warm?
Our sheep are hill ewes mainly as we can stock higher , it’s a numbers game after all, but also because they are thrifty and hardy,
Does our pp make us regenerative

Sorry just tired musings really but as I said to Janet Hughes on the other thread , these farms are in another world compared to what it looks like the sfi are wanting

Al R · Jul 4, 2022

Wood field said:
Funny thing this regenerative agriculture,
Take our place , hill/ moor farm 900-1200 ft
Thin soils etc etc
We went from cattle to all sheep due to wintering costs ( now we’ve a handful of galloways)
There’s a few tree belts mostly planted by previous owner but on the whole it’s pp
Now.. we don’t use fertiliser just bedding muck spread back to mowing meadows
Some of the fields are grazed bare at the minute due to long cold dry weather ie slow grass growth and 30 acres shut down for mowing
If the sheep need a worm or fluke drench then they get it
If I need to feed cake in winter then they get it (or molasses or beet)
Reading on the net about regenerative ag, cover crops are almost always mentioned or “ herbal leys” etc but on a farm like ours they won’t work ( see the threads on elms and sfi)
I guess what I am trying to say or ask is .., what is regenerative ag
Is it the preserve of lowland farmers and arable farms to make themselves feel cozy and warm?
Our sheep are hill ewes mainly as we can stock higher , it’s a numbers game after all, but also because they are thrifty and hardy,
Does our pp make us regenerative
Sorry just tired musings really but as I said to Janet Hughes on the other thread , these farms are in another world compared to what it looks like the sfi are wanting

The term regenerative ag seriously boils my pi55. Why not call it traditional methods?
I’ve got some 39 year old leys here which would make a mockery out of anything that could actually be sown. Wild white clover, wild red clover, dandelions/plantain in abundance, loads of purple fog type grasses, it’s very seldom that there isn’t something in flower or seeding. Just like most of the hills. The land is bared off over winter and then reduced stocking rate as the grass growth appears giving an abundance of wildlife etc.
We had a dung beetle survey done by a leading dung beetle scientist years ago who’d travelled the world and actually discovered several totally new species of dung beetles on the farm here

Regerative grazing sheep breed?

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