Pheasants and Partridges on a farm/estate when……..?

steveR · Dec 4, 2022

Vader said:
Definitely less songbirds about.
Birds feeder in garden hardly been touched.
Normally fill twice a week.

I fully agree.

There are acres and acres of bumblebird mix here with literally tonnes of food about for the birds. But the customers are just not there. I would ususally expect to see 3-4 huge flocks scattered about, this time, it is 20-30 in a group..

I do wonder if the drought will have hammered breeding this time as well as the effects of AI

uztrac · Dec 4, 2022

britt said:
The GWCT has done decades of work on this at the Allerton Project. Point any "antis" in that direction, if they won't read it you can call them out as ignorant on the subject.
Their basic mantra for conservation is the "three legged stool", habitat, predator control and supplementary feeding.
They are just starting a project on nest failure in waders, (so not biased towards game birds), in which they will be putting cameras on as many nests as possible to identify reasons for failure and just which predators cause the damage. But they need funds, please go to the GWCT website to donate to this project, or better still join.
YOU have the opportunity to help provide the scientific evidence that predators need to be controlled. Don't whinge about Packham and friends if you pass this opportunity by.
GWCT do have a lot of respect from Government and the Civil service, as they have such extensive research. They use science, not rhetoric or opinion or emotion.

As a fellow member I agree fully with your summary. The woodcock project that is ongoing amazes me,those birds coming & going from Siberia to the UK ,then returning to the same patch of woodland.

Longlowdog · Dec 4, 2022

There are lots of charities and community groups buying land 'to ensure it never again falls into the hands of rich hunters' and yet more land is being purchased to put into trees but none of these people spend any money pro-actively managing it specifically for the benefit of the resident wildlife. The very best estates I've visited begin their term of care from the soil biology up to the tips of the red deer's antlers and above to the raptors flying around. Without funds from philanthropic, long visioned estate owners with a passion for the outdoors and very deep pockets I'm certain our country would be very much denuded of the wildlife it currently boasts. It is grouse 'keepers who host our waders, it was deer stalkers who had deer elevated from the season-less vermin to game with seasons and it is pheasant shoots that continue to release poults knowing they will shoot 40-50% with the rest going to feed foxes, badgers, owls and a host of other raptors.
If 'keepers and the funding behind them were to be removed I'm positive and backed up by science on this that the biodiversity of this amazing island would plunge almost overnight and certainly within a scientifically significant period that could not honestly be explained away by any other reason.
I believe every community buy out, every charity purchase, every carbon capture project should have to pay for a biodiversity audit before and during their ownership and have a duty of care to ensure the results only ever increase rather than decline.

som farmer · Dec 4, 2022

Anymulewilldo said:
We tried melonistics and pure Jap greens a few years back. Looked absolutely stunning and flew like sky rockets, but they never bothered to come back Back to good old fashioned ring necks after that little experiment

totally agree.
the bit l don't quite 'get', is they avoided the guns, several stayed, some produced a brood, and we saw them, on a daily basis, till we cut the maize, and haven't seen any since.
the normal ones, which we didn't see many of, all summer, have returned, mainly old birds, few poults, which l expect were hatched here, can see them increasing on a daily basis.

They are not neighbours' birds, they had late poults. Which is great, will still be accused of stealing their poults though !

The movement of pheasants is interesting, obviously our black ones f'ed off, they were 20% of our bag, they were replaced by ring necks travelling in. But those ringnecks, never moved on again, and stayed all summer, and are here now. They still roost in, and around our release pen, which is where l fed till april.

No doubt as our neighbours keep shooting on a weekly basis, more will appear, for 'peace and quiet', and hopefully stay.

What we planned, one big social day, with a small bag, the small, might get respectable.

som farmer · Dec 4, 2022

steveR said:
I fully agree.

There are acres and acres of bumblebird mix here with literally tonnes of food about for the birds. But the customers are just not there. I would ususally expect to see 3-4 huge flocks scattered about, this time, it is 20-30 in a group..

I do wonder if the drought will have hammered breeding this time as well as the effects of AI

bloody certain the badger cull has led to more pheasant and duck broods, and hedgehogs, seeing a few, first time in 30yrs? And hares, quadrupled?

Humble Village Farmer · Dec 4, 2022

Longlowdog said:
There are lots of charities and community groups buying land 'to ensure it never again falls into the hands of rich hunters' and yet more land is being purchased to put into trees but none of these people spend any money pro-actively managing it specifically for the benefit of the resident wildlife. The very best estates I've visited begin their term of care from the soil biology up to the tips of the red deer's antlers and above to the raptors flying around. Without funds from philanthropic, long visioned estate owners with a passion for the outdoors and very deep pockets I'm certain our country would be very much denuded of the wildlife it currently boasts. It is grouse 'keepers who host our waders, it was deer stalkers who had deer elevated from the season-less vermin to game with seasons and it is pheasant shoots that continue to release poults knowing they will shoot 40-50% with the rest going to feed foxes, badgers, owls and a host of other raptors.
If 'keepers and the funding behind them were to be removed I'm positive and backed up by science on this that the biodiversity of this amazing island would plunge almost overnight and certainly within a scientifically significant period that could not honestly be explained away by any other reason.
I believe every community buy out, every charity purchase, every carbon capture project should have to pay for a biodiversity audit before and during their ownership and have a duty of care to ensure the results only ever increase rather than decline.

You seem to imply that there would be no wildlife without the keepers and stalkers.

You would be surprised at the number of species that once lived here before humans, all driven away or wiped out.

Anymulewilldo · Dec 4, 2022

There is, but it’s subject to the prey and predator cycles,

Humble Village Farmer said:
You seem to imply that there would be no wildlife without the keepers and stalkers.

You would be surprised at the number of species that once lived here before humans, all driven away or wiped out.

and the availability of food vs population cycle. We accept that if something gets to numerous it will starve and die back to the correct number in nature. But the bunny huggers and eco freaks won’t accept that.

Vader · Dec 4, 2022

steveR said:
I fully agree.

There are acres and acres of bumblebird mix here with literally tonnes of food about for the birds. But the customers are just not there. I would ususally expect to see 3-4 huge flocks scattered about, this time, it is 20-30 in a group..

I do wonder if the drought will have hammered breeding this time as well as the effects of AI

We had drinkers going all summer because of the drought.
So no water shortage, but now shortage of songbirds...

Vader · Dec 4, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
You seem to imply that there would be no wildlife without the keepers and stalkers.

You would be surprised at the number of species that once lived here before humans, all driven away or wiped out.

Before humans yes..
But now the landscape has been managed for 100s of years.
Population of humans is huge.
No land will ever be truly wild again, so has to be managed.
And yes, once keepers and shoots go, so does wildlife. Plenty of studies shown it.
Simply put, once RSpb takes over and stops shooting. Wildlife numbers drop and stay dropped.

Vader · Dec 4, 2022

Anymulewilldo said:
There is, but it’s subject to the prey and predator cycles,

and the availability of food vs population cycle. We accept that if something gets to numerous it will starve and die back to the correct number in nature. But the bunny huggers and eco freaks won’t accept that.

Problem is predators dont die back as they now got used to other food sources to keep them going such as road kills, Dustbins, tips, feeling feeding them etc.

So the prey spieces get wiped out, but the predator numbers remain stopping and chance of the prey spieces recovering.

Anymulewilldo · Dec 4, 2022

Vader said:
Before humans yes..
But now the landscape has been managed for 100s of years.
Population of humans is huge.
No land will ever be truly wild again, so has to be managed.
And yes, once keepers and shoots go, so does wildlife. Plenty of studies shown it.
Simply put, once RSpb takes over and stops shooting. Wildlife numbers drop and stay dropped.

It’s very funny really. Get up on Saddleworth moor, they’ve stopped shooting on the water board land, and on various other big areas of it. It’s pretty damn barren now. Yet 1/2 a mile away on keepered moorland there are curlews and all sorts of other birds everywhere. Because there is plenty of prey there are plenty of raptors, there’s hardly a pair on the “wild” moorland due to lack of prey and what there is is hidden beneath a thick vegetation mat. And then there’s the bushfires… they don’t start on the keepered ground

Anymulewilldo · Dec 4, 2022

Vader said:
Problem is predators dont die back as they now got used to other food sources to keep them going such as road kills, Dustbins, tips, feeling feeding them etc.

So the prey spieces get wiped out, but the predator numbers remain stopping and chance of the prey spieces recovering.

But you try telling packhams disciples that. Can’t see what’s blatantly obvious because it doesn’t fit with their ideas

Doing it for the kids · Dec 4, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
You seem to imply that there would be no wildlife without the keepers and stalkers.

You would be surprised at the number of species that once lived here before humans, all driven away or wiped out.

The trouble is there is no yard stick to measure from because the UK has been managed for so long.

Everyone’s perception of what’s good is different.

Fact remains as above that the ex shooting now RSPB estates dotted around are wonderful examples of what management and lack of management both yield.

Unless you are a fox, badger or Corvid the RSPB does little to help.

Anymulewilldo · Dec 4, 2022

Doing it for the kids said:
The trouble is there is no yard stick to measure from because the UK has been managed for so long.

Everyone’s perception of what’s good is different.

Fact remains as above that the ex shooting now RSPB estates dotted around are wonderful examples of what management and lack of management both yield.

Unless you are a fox, badger or Corvid the RSPB does little to help.

How long is it since LACS were caught mass culling deer on one of their estates from a vehicle as they hadn’t managed numbers until the herd was in a bad way?

Longlowdog · Dec 4, 2022

L.A.C.S 'sanctuary' at Barronsdown has been repeatedly criticised for massive overcrowding of red deer and for being riddled with T.B. They thought that zero management and feeding the deer from the surrounding area into their preserve would protect them but instead it became an over grazed, denuded wasteland with malnourished disease riddled deer. They bought that place with gullible punters money and have never been held to account for their failings. Every expose on the place has been met with press releases from their formidable press team claiming selective editing and fake news. It's funny in a sick way because that was their speciality when defaming fieldsports.

steveR · Dec 4, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
You seem to imply that there would be no wildlife without the keepers and stalkers.

You would be surprised at the number of species that once lived here before humans, all driven away or wiped out.

Something of a thin argument TBH, we now live in a world that has largely been shaped by man, whether we like it or not... Certainly in the UK with a largely man-made and managed landscape

Vader said:
We had drinkers going all summer because of the drought.
So no water shortage, but now shortage of songbirds...

Same here, plenty of natural water that kept going...just.

Songbirds????

steveR · Dec 4, 2022

som farmer said:
bloody certain the badger cull has led to more pheasant and duck broods, and hedgehogs, seeing a few, first time in 30yrs? And hares, quadrupled?

Partridge too I am told by a shooting friend who is seeing breeding population creeping up again.

I put down some (hopefully) breeding adults last Spring and now have a small covey of Greys back for the first time in 20 years. Will do a few more next year, to try and build a diverse population here again.

som farmer · Dec 4, 2022

steveR said:
Partridge too I am told by a shooting friend who is seeing breeding population creeping up again.

I put down some (hopefully) breeding adults last Spring and now have a small covey of Greys back for the first time in 20 years. Will do a few more next year, to try and build a diverse population here again.

we regularly see a covey of 16 red legs, since we cut the corn, not sure there are Youngbirds in it, 14 would be an unusually high number to rear, could be 2 broods, or all old birds, they are certainly wild.

It doesn't take a lot to return to a more 'sustainable' level of 'wild' animals, just remove the main nest predator, the badger, and things have quickly altered. With sandy soil, we were in prime badger country, 180acres, and 18 active setts. We still have badgers, and are quite happy to have a few here, we haven't had many problems with TB, and we think a small number of healthy ones, should keep the unhealthy ones out.

We forget how things change, it wasn't much over 50 yrs ago, we started to see roe deer here, OM was full of it. The next were Buzzards, they just sort of crept in, now both of them are in abundance. And l have seen otter spraint, they didn't stay, muntjac, they haven't either, fallow, will stay, and Kites have arrived, which is great, but where is the control on breeding evermore deer, foxes badgers' crows, and ravens, in the last few years, there isn't any, just as there isn't and truly natural landscape left, man has altered it, over 1,000's of years.

Vader · Dec 4, 2022

som farmer said:
we regularly see a covey of 16 red legs, since we cut the corn, not sure there are Youngbirds in it, 14 would be an unusually high number to rear, could be 2 broods, or all old birds, they are certainly wild.

It doesn't take a lot to return to a more 'sustainable' level of 'wild' animals, just remove the main nest predator, the badger, and things have quickly altered. With sandy soil, we were in prime badger country, 180acres, and 18 active setts. We still have badgers, and are quite happy to have a few here, we haven't had many problems with TB, and we think a small number of healthy ones, should keep the unhealthy ones out.

We forget how things change, it wasn't much over 50 yrs ago, we started to see roe deer here, OM was full of it. The next were Buzzards, they just sort of crept in, now both of them are in abundance. And l have seen otter spraint, they didn't stay, muntjac, they haven't either, fallow, will stay, and Kites have arrived, which is great, but where is the control on breeding evermore deer, foxes badgers' crows, and ravens, in the last few years, there isn't any, just as there isn't and truly natural landscape left, man has altered it, over 1,000's of years.

Buzzards numbers up round here.
Wipes out all the lapwings. Chicks to easy to pick off..

steveR · Dec 4, 2022

Anymulewilldo said:
How long is it since LACS were caught mass culling deer on one of their estates from a vehicle as they hadn’t managed numbers until the herd was in a bad way?

LACS??

Lots of Estates now realising that they need to cull, and cull hard of the deer populations.

Pheasants and Partridges on a farm/estate when……..?

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