Clostridial vaccines not doing their job

Sheeplass

Member
Livestock Farmer
We got on early and ordered our clostridial vaccines so we had enough to dose our lambs as usual at the start of may and again at the start of june, although we had to use ovivac P rather than heptavac P. However, we've had so many problems I'm starting to suspect the vaccines haven't worked and speaking to a few other farmers locally they seem to have the same problem.

One batch of lambs started to die at the end of June, 3 weeks after their booster dose. A post mortem confirmed it was pasteurella. The vet who did the post mortem told us we couldn't do anything about it as our lambs were vaccinated up and it was obviously our colostrum management at fault. Now I did take offence at this as I am very particular about colostrum management. We test a good proportion of our ewes for colostrum quality with a refractometer and I make a point of checking any newborn lambs a few hours after birth to make sure they got a suck, though obviously I may have missed an odd one it seemed strange so many were dying! So we decided to just vaccinate all that batch again and the problem was cured. It was a new nit of land we had taken so I just put it down to a high level of disease on that pasture and stressed lbs from loads of dog walkers using the field.

Fast forward to now and I moved a different batch of ewes and lambs from the pasture fields they've been on to some silage aftermath. I put them in there about a week before weaning then remove the ewes to reduce the stress on the lambs. A few days after moving them a big lamb was dead so again, a post mortem and this time it was pulpy kidney. The vet said it was because I changed the diet onto lush grass but we never usually have a problem. Again I got more ovivac P and jab ed all this batch of lambs and as we walked the last lot back to the field another big single lamb dropped down dead in front of me. Judging by the pericardial fluid it's another case of pulpy kidney. We do usually do a third dose but not until October!

So yes, the whole thing has got me a bit nervous and suspicious of how effective the vaccines actually are. The vaccine company is blaming farmers saying the vaccines must have gone off in the bottle as we were using them in the hot weather but I'm not totally buying that either. I ordered everything in 100s and any to jab away from home was transported and kept in a fridge bag with an ice pack till it was used.

I'm now debating if I need to booster these again in 4-6 weeks if the initial doses haven't worked, I think I need to ring the vet again!

Has anyone else found problems with the vaccines not working right this time?
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
Vaccines have got to be stored correctly after you have picked them up from the vet etc, left in the truck or in direct sunlight etc will knacker them. I dont really trust them for more than a few hours after they have been opened either ,just to be on the safe side.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
We got on early and ordered our clostridial vaccines so we had enough to dose our lambs as usual at the start of may and again at the start of june, although we had to use ovivac P rather than heptavac P. However, we've had so many problems I'm starting to suspect the vaccines haven't worked and speaking to a few other farmers locally they seem to have the same problem.

One batch of lambs started to die at the end of June, 3 weeks after their booster dose. A post mortem confirmed it was pasteurella. The vet who did the post mortem told us we couldn't do anything about it as our lambs were vaccinated up and it was obviously our colostrum management at fault. Now I did take offence at this as I am very particular about colostrum management. We test a good proportion of our ewes for colostrum quality with a refractometer and I make a point of checking any newborn lambs a few hours after birth to make sure they got a suck, though obviously I may have missed an odd one it seemed strange so many were dying! So we decided to just vaccinate all that batch again and the problem was cured. It was a new nit of land we had taken so I just put it down to a high level of disease on that pasture and stressed lbs from loads of dog walkers using the field.

Fast forward to now and I moved a different batch of ewes and lambs from the pasture fields they've been on to some silage aftermath. I put them in there about a week before weaning then remove the ewes to reduce the stress on the lambs. A few days after moving them a big lamb was dead so again, a post mortem and this time it was pulpy kidney. The vet said it was because I changed the diet onto lush grass but we never usually have a problem. Again I got more ovivac P and jab ed all this batch of lambs and as we walked the last lot back to the field another big single lamb dropped down dead in front of me. Judging by the pericardial fluid it's another case of pulpy kidney. We do usually do a third dose but not until October!

So yes, the whole thing has got me a bit nervous and suspicious of how effective the vaccines actually are. The vaccine company is blaming farmers saying the vaccines must have gone off in the bottle as we were using them in the hot weather but I'm not totally buying that either. I ordered everything in 100s and any to jab away from home was transported and kept in a fridge bag with an ice pack till it was used.

I'm now debating if I need to booster these again in 4-6 weeks if the initial doses haven't worked, I think I need to ring the vet again!

Has anyone else found problems with the vaccines not working right this time?

The vaccine company is obliged to investigate such cases I believe, and have done in two pasteurella outbreaks I had in recent years. Your vet would have to instigate it, then your vet and AHVLA post mortem fees will be covered.

In both cases it came back as pasteurella, but a strain not covered by the vaccine.

Poor vaccine storage, technique or colostrum management is their standard 'get out' answer, as anyone would struggle to actually prove otherwise.
 

Sheeplass

Member
Livestock Farmer
The vaccine company is obliged to investigate such cases I believe, and have done in two pasteurella outbreaks I had in recent years. Your vet would have to instigate it, then your vet and AHVLA post mortem fees will be covered.

In both cases it came back as pasteurella, but a strain not covered by the vaccine.

Poor vaccine storage, technique or colostrum management is their standard 'get out' answer, as anyone would struggle to actually prove otherwise.
Now that is interesting! Our vet never mentioned anything like this. I'll have to bring it up with them!
 

Sheeplass

Member
Livestock Farmer
Vaccines have got to be stored correctly after you have picked them up from the vet etc, left in the truck or in direct sunlight etc will knacker them. I dont really trust them for more than a few hours after they have been opened either ,just to be on the safe side.
Well that's part of the problem isn't it. Were they delayed a long time in a truck waiting to go through the border and got a bit warm? Were they properly transported to the supplier? Did the supplier transport them properly to the shop? Was a fridge a bit warm at some point along the journey? Did my fridge get a bit warm in the hot weather? Did the cool bag and ice pack do it's job?

There are so many points from leaving the factory where the vaccine could have become compromised it's nigh on impossible to say exactly where or when, if that even is the case! 😕
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
You're definitely on your own re. pasteurella - the "P" in Ovivac and Heptavac is as good as pissing in the wind as there's so many strains. It really isn't worth the cost giving it to them.



As for pulpey kidney, they (vet/manufacturers) should be following that up...



But 1 thing I'd pick up on - you say stored in a fridge bag with an ice pack. There is a chance it's been exposed to too cold a conditions. It needs refrigerated, not exposed to freezing temps.
 
Right then, I’m not saying this is for everybody but, I have never vaccinated an animal on my farm I have 300+ ewes and their lambs. I pick up no more lambs than my friends who do vaccinate. One day I may get caught out but even when we had 130 sucklers as well not one was jabbed and they came out of markets all the time.
I have just never got on that treadmill.
My father and brother have around 600 and I know they are not jabbed either.

As I said this is not for everyone though.
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
Right then, I’m not saying this is for everybody but, I have never vaccinated an animal on my farm I have 300+ ewes and their lambs. I pick up no more lambs than my friends who do vaccinate. One day I may get caught out but even when we had 130 sucklers as well not one was jabbed and they came out of markets all the time.
I have just never got on that treadmill.
My father and brother have around 600 and I know they are not jabbed either.

As I said this is not for everyone though.
Depends alot on the type of ground your farming
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
Well that's part of the problem isn't it. Were they delayed a long time in a truck waiting to go through the border and got a bit warm? Were they properly transported to the supplier? Did the supplier transport them properly to the shop? Was a fridge a bit warm at some point along the journey? Did my fridge get a bit warm in the hot weather? Did the cool bag and ice pack do it's job?

There are so many points from leaving the factory where the vaccine could have become compromised it's nigh on impossible to say exactly where or when, if that even is the case! 😕
You can answer the questions on its storage since you bought it though, suppliers and vets are pretty hot on handling and storing it correctly
 

soapsud

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dorset
Has anyone else found problems with the vaccines not working right this time?
We always got a few losses with lambs out of mules. Changing vaccines didn't help. We've found other breeds are better suited to the grazing we can get for them.

We don't vaccinate now because of observable liver damage - we sell lamb liver as part of our box scheme.

Good luck getting some come back.
 

ladycrofter

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
What is your dosing procedure? We take cool packs to the field and the gun gets laid on them periodically as we're spot on etc too. But the vacc is certainly not 100% effective. Same as I'm sure some humans get something they were vaccd for.

"A few days after moving them a big lamb was dead" classic P trehlosi. Been there done that. Your best ones drop dead of blood poisoning within a day or two of moving because they eat the most - essentially caused by huge bloom of said bug feeding on a huge jump in gut sugar intake, then releasing blood toxin as waste. Don't put lambs on lush aftermath. No immunity boost from vaccination can stop the excessive challenge.
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Right then, I’m not saying this is for everybody but, I have never vaccinated an animal on my farm I have 300+ ewes and their lambs. I pick up no more lambs than my friends who do vaccinate. One day I may get caught out but even when we had 130 sucklers as well not one was jabbed and they came out of markets all the time.
I have just never got on that treadmill.
My father and brother have around 600 and I know they are not jabbed either.

As I said this is not for everyone though.

Lambing 550-600 most years here. Ewes are all vaccinated with Bravoxin - but no P. cover.

Don't vaccinate any lambs, ever. Stopped using Ovivac almost 20 years ago. Replacements get done now as Gimmers before coming into the breeding flock.


Like you, don't lose any more lambs now than we did when vaccinated.
But I do need to continue with the ewes - or I lose good lambs in that 10-21day old stage at lambing.
 

Bob the beef

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Scot Borders
Lambing 550-600 most years here. Ewes are all vaccinated with Bravoxin - but no P. cover.

Don't vaccinate any lambs, ever. Stopped using Ovivac almost 20 years ago. Replacements get done now as Gimmers before coming into the breeding flock.


Like you, don't lose any more lambs now than we did when vaccinated.
But I do need to continue with the ewes - or I lose good lambs in that 10-21day old stage at lambing.
Seriously considering stopping the whole lamb vaccination program. Usually do all ewe lambs from maternal sires with hep p and everything else oviv p. This year all got 2 doses of oviv p because no hep going about. Thecost of doing all these jabs is getting way beyond the supposed savings in lamb deaths.
did you notice any initial increase in deaths/ disease when you stopped?
 

Y Fan Wen

Member
Location
N W Snowdonia
My losses happen when the ewe lambs are shipped off to their wintering pastures so I make sure their 2nd jab is at least 4 weeks before that happens. Dad was very lax about vacc timings and I used to fret a lot about these preventable losses.
The main flock is getting sheared this week and the els will be getting their 1st then.
 

Macsky

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
We always got a few losses with lambs out of mules. Changing vaccines didn't help. We've found other breeds are better suited to the grazing we can get for them.

We don't vaccinate now because of observable liver damage - we sell lamb liver as part of our box scheme.

Good luck getting some come back.
Can you tell us more about the liver damage?
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Seriously considering stopping the whole lamb vaccination program. Usually do all ewe lambs from maternal sires with hep p and everything else oviv p. This year all got 2 doses of oviv p because no hep going about. Thecost of doing all these jabs is getting way beyond the supposed savings in lamb deaths.
did you notice any initial increase in deaths/ disease when you stopped?

No, nothing noticeable anyway. We always lost the odd lamb even when they were vaccinated, so thought there wasn't much to lose by trying a few years without vaccinating.

We still lose that odd lamb - so nothing changed there, we just haven't jizzed away several hundred on the vaccine. It will have fairly accumulated ££££ savings counting up over 20 years (but I'm not any richer 😂)

I'd need to lose a lot of lambs before I reconsider my position on vaccinating them.



You Jag as an insurance... it's upto you if you feel the cost of the vaccines are justified against the (potential) loss of lambs.




I flat refuse to believe the Pneumonia part is even worthwhile - and Heptavac is certainly not a worthwhile vaccine for clostridial cover when it covers less diseases than Bravoxin and Covexin - yet costs 3-4 times more
 

DB67

Member
Location
Scotland
Lost a dozen lambs out of one field within 4 days after second ovivac. Put it down to weather being crap. No problems In any other lots.
 

soapsud

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dorset
Can you tell us more about the liver damage?
It was a few years ago. A few livers were malformed or had growths on them. No lessions nor scar tissue indicative of fluke. These lambs were sired by texels (that a vet told us have naturally small livers). As I say, no sign of fluke but the flock rotated between high and dry free draining limestone down to steep valleys with springs (seepers not gushers). We just decided to stop vaccinating, keep a closed flock and only buy in rams. Livers look fine now. But the mules went last autumn and we've just got the lleyn and southdown crosses now. Touch wood nothing serious has happened since but we're on different unproven grounds now so keeping a regular eye out.
 

Bob the beef

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Scot Borders
No, nothing noticeable anyway. We always lost the odd lamb even when they were vaccinated, so thought there wasn't much to lose by trying a few years without vaccinating.

We still lose that odd lamb - so nothing changed there, we just haven't jizzed away several hundred on the vaccine. It will have fairly accumulated ££££ savings counting up over 20 years (but I'm not any richer 😂)

I'd need to lose a lot of lambs before I reconsider my position on vaccinating them.



You Jag as an insurance... it's upto you if you feel the cost of the vaccines are justified against the (potential) loss of lambs.




I flat refuse to believe the Pneumonia part is even worthwhile - and Heptavac is certainly not a worthwhile vaccine for clostridial cover when it covers less diseases than Bravoxin and Covexin - yet costs 3-4 times more
Up till recently I was happy to pay that “insurance” but starting to feel that it isn’t worth the cost. Had to jag all ewes with covexin this year pre lambing because of a lack of Hep p, so will likely just carry on doing that and probably stop the lamb vaccination
 

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