Sustainable farming incentive - handbook for 2023 has been published

andybk said:

for arable land and IMPROVED perm pasture, not land we have been careful not to use sprays and fert no recognition for having done the right thing for years

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I agree grassland payment rates are poor.

I suppose DEFRA could say grassland has a lower capital value than arable (broad brush statement!).

Tiptoe Ted said:

As @Janet Hughes Defra appears to have left the conversation, can anyone else answer my query please?
Can we cancel an existing Mid Tier agreement early in order to go all in to SFI?
I believe we can but can't find it in writing anywhere...

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I put this question via email to RPA, wrote in on 3rd of July. Pointed out on page 2 of our CS handbook it said we could change from CS to ELMS without penalty.

Got telephone call yesterday from them. Guy who rang was a nice chap, but his hands were tied.

As things stood they were waiting for RPA to update the SFI guidance, so didn't exactly have an answer, however, he said that as things stood currently, under the CS terms and conditions, if we dropped out of CS before end of agreement... we'd have to pay back (potentially all) the payments.

I said we needed to know because we were due to establish AB15 (year 3 of our CS), and establishment time of year is upon us, and we didn't want to miss the opportunity of good soil moisture, but didn't want to establish the expensive seed if we could move over to SFI.

He understood, but didn't have an answer. Not his fault. Unforgivable hopelessness by RPA. It's August, it's prime AB15 establishment season, SFI recons to be coming available for applications in August..... but no clear answer to our question, other than we'd potentially have to pay all the CS payments back.

Grass And Grain said:

I agree grassland payment rates are poor.

I suppose DEFRA could say grassland has a lower capital value than arable (broad brush statement!).


I put this question via email to RPA, wrote in on 3rd of July. Pointed out on page 2 of our CS handbook it said we could change from CS to ELMS without penalty.

Got telephone call yesterday from them. Guy who rang was a nice chap, but his hands were tied.

As things stood they were waiting for RPA to update the SFI guidance, so didn't exactly have an answer, however, he said that as things stood currently, under the CS terms and conditions, if we dropped out of CS before end of agreement... we'd have to pay back (potentially all) the payments.

I said we needed to know because we were due to establish AB15 (year 3 of our CS), and establishment time of year is upon us, and we didn't want to miss the opportunity of good soil moisture, but didn't want to establish the expensive seed if we could move over to SFI.

He understood, but didn't have an answer. Not his fault. Unforgivable hopelessness by RPA. It's August, it's prime AB15 establishment season, SFI recons to be coming available for applications in August..... but no clear answer to our question, other than we'd potentially have to pay all the CS payments back.

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I don’t think SFI will be widely available for applications for some time yet, it definitely won’t be open to all in August.

B'o'B said:

I don’t think SFI will be widely available for applications for some time yet, it definitely won’t be open to all in August.

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Hmm, they were a bit vague with the wording weren't they.

Of we can't join Aug or Sept, then we'll probably leave it a year anyway, because if we did anything like legume and herb rich grass for example, then I'd want to put it in with wheat at end of 3 years. Hence want Aug/sept start date

No biggie for me, can just stay in CS, but bad of RPA not to be organised by now.

B'o'B said:

I don’t think SFI will be widely available for applications for some time yet, it definitely won’t be open to all in August.

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If it opens it should be available for all or they should backdate the application

B'o'B said:

I don’t think SFI will be widely available for applications for some time yet, it definitely won’t be open to all in August.

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How many years have they had ? Does anyone in DEFRA know anything about their brief ? Seasons and prime establishment weather comes and goes , yet no one can seem to make a decision without it having to go through panel after panel for a yes of no ,
learning experience works both ways , ffs someone in government make a decision , if its wrong it can be changed later . Just cancelled my animal health review because we were running out of time , granted in march yet need to get FEC done (twice) for grant , dry spring, hardly any worms about so vet wouldnt do it till now , RPA wont grant extension so better cancel start again what a waste of time 4 weeks extra and job done ,

Clive said:

i’m dropping OSR from out rotation to de risk, osr gross margin is not as good as various cs and sfi options so food production area will drop yes but that aside it still looks better than bps on our situation

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Thanks for reply. Interesting.

Grass And Grain said:

I agree grassland payment rates are poor.

I suppose DEFRA could say grassland has a lower capital value than arable (broad brush statement!).


I put this question via email to RPA, wrote in on 3rd of July. Pointed out on page 2 of our CS handbook it said we could change from CS to ELMS without penalty.

Got telephone call yesterday from them. Guy who rang was a nice chap, but his hands were tied.

As things stood they were waiting for RPA to update the SFI guidance, so didn't exactly have an answer, however, he said that as things stood currently, under the CS terms and conditions, if we dropped out of CS before end of agreement... we'd have to pay back (potentially all) the payments.

I said we needed to know because we were due to establish AB15 (year 3 of our CS), and establishment time of year is upon us, and we didn't want to miss the opportunity of good soil moisture, but didn't want to establish the expensive seed if we could move over to SFI.

He understood, but didn't have an answer. Not his fault. Unforgivable hopelessness by RPA. It's August, it's prime AB15 establishment season, SFI recons to be coming available for applications in August..... but no clear answer to our question, other than we'd potentially have to pay all the CS payments back.

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Its a shambles it really is but those in charge will not be held to account

andybk said:

How many years have they had ? Does anyone in DEFRA know anything about their brief ? Seasons and prime establishment weather comes and goes , yet no one can seem to make a decision without it having to go through panel after panel for a yes of no ,
learning experience works both ways , ffs someone in government make a decision , if its wrong it can be changed later . Just cancelled my animal health review because we were running out of time , granted in march yet need to get FEC done (twice) for grant , dry spring, hardly any worms about so vet wouldnt do it till now , RPA wont grant extension so better cancel start again what a waste of time 4 weeks extra and job done ,

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If someone wanted to join SFI and put herbal and legume rich leys in one place for 3 years, then they want to know right now what they're doing. November won't be any use, and spring sowing will mean half a growing season lost.

Meanwhile BPS evaporates, and we were told budget would be same and schemes available to us to replace list BPS.

Complete shambles.

Clive said:

“it is up to you how you achieve these outcomes “ - a sentence you will see featured heavily in the SFI handbook

i think we all need to move on from the red tape prescriptive nature of IACS / BPS etc. ……. we have been telling politicians we know what’s best for our individual farms for years and now they finally acknowledge that and create a scheme that lets US do what’s best ………… we ask them to define EXACTLY what we need to do “ because inspection”

aims / outcomes are clear as if things you CANNOT do ……. the rest is up to you, that’s clear


you couldn’t make it up - there really is little pleasing British farmers

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@Clive
This suggests you trust the RPA. Do you?
If so “good luck” , best delivered with a German accent.

Clive said:

“it is up to you how you achieve these outcomes “ - a sentence you will see featured heavily in the SFI handbook

i think we all need to move on from the red tape prescriptive nature of IACS / BPS etc. ……. we have been telling politicians we know what’s best for our individual farms for years and now they finally acknowledge that and create a scheme that lets US do what’s best ………… we ask them to define EXACTLY what we need to do “ because inspection”

aims / outcomes are clear as if things you CANNOT do ……. the rest is up to you, that’s clear


you couldn’t make it up - there really is little pleasing British farmers

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I think one of the problems is trusting the RPA to actually stick to this light touch regulation if you have an inspection. I also think on the grassland and bird feed offers they need a bit more detail. Example photos of what they consider an acceptable outcome would be very helpful.

EDIT

On the other hand if they want 70% take up which I believe is part of the net zero plan, they will have to be light touch or I don’t think they have a hope

B'o'B said:

I don’t think SFI will be widely available for applications for some time yet, it definitely won’t be open to all in August.

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rang defra helpline today to find out more , after 3 ( interestingly I was always number one in the q so cant be many folk interested) calls the first 2 didnt have a clue one cut me off and never rang back the first couldnt or wouldnt understand my questions but eventually call 3 a helpful lady told me and spent some time grasping my situation it would be mid september or later before i could/ would be invited to apply and then wait a month at best for acceptence then another wait to agree before the following month finally starting the scheme on the first of the month following so effectively 1st december at the earliest so how do we do over wintered stuff or adopt a hedge row policy in the first year ,not possible was the advice but could add them for 24/5 .So basically feck all year 1 and then live in hope something comes up at a later date that fits . I explained that the scheme doesnt seem to take account of the farming seasons to which she explained Icould add things towards the end of year 1 and on further probing by me said the scheme for you would finish 3 years from the date of acceptance whenever you added extra bits so now back to studying the options on wet days of which we have an abundance lately .

Aspiring Peasants said:

I think one of the problems is trusting the RPA to actually stick to this light touch regulation if you have an inspection. I also think on the grassland and bird feed offers they need a bit more detail. Example photos of what they consider an acceptable outcome would be very helpful.

EDIT

On the other hand if they want 70% take up which I believe is part of the net zero plan, they will have to be light touch or I don’t think they have a hope

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And only time will tell on this point....

4course said:

rang defra helpline today to find out more , after 3 ( interestingly I was always number one in the q so cant be many folk interested) calls the first 2 didnt have a clue one cut me off and never rang back the first couldnt or wouldnt understand my questions but eventually call 3 a helpful lady told me and spent some time grasping my situation it would be mid september or later before i could/ would be invited to apply and then wait a month at best for acceptence then another wait to agree before the following month finally starting the scheme on the first of the month following so effectively 1st december at the earliest so how do we do over wintered stuff or adopt a hedge row policy in the first year ,not possible was the advice but could add them for 24/5 .So basically feck all year 1 and then live in hope something comes up at a later date that fits . I explained that the scheme doesnt seem to take account of the farming seasons to which she explained Icould add things towards the end of year 1 and on further probing by me said the scheme for you would finish 3 years from the date of acceptance whenever you added extra bits so now back to studying the options on wet days of which we have an abundance lately .

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Further more was led to believe that the interpretation given by the defra folk was their view and I should consult the sfi handbook before joining the scheme which basically means they havnt a clue of how its going to work in practice down ont farm !!

The danger or rather one of them I see is should common sense prevail and the scheme is drastically altered if you havnt applied in year one( bit like being in the old scheme) you run the risk of being excluded should it ever become sensible to join up

Still waiting for a substantive response to my request for a copy of the RPA enforcement policy. It’s been a month since I first made the request.
How can it be that hard unless of course they don’t have one which means the inspectors make it up as they go along safe in the knowledge that there is no equality in dispute resolution between the parties to the contract. RPA inspectors are judge jury and executioner in their own court but we should trust them!
I really don’t think so @Clive

Still feel high and dry , Janet how about a livestock number reduction annual payment…. It’s basically what you want without saying it

Clive said:

it is available ........ but you have to print it yourself

it will change, they have said clearly that more standards will be added, they have even told us (back in February ) what some will be (but no details yet). ie a direct drilling standards and a precision farming standard

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This is a difficult one!

With the greatest of respect @Clive, I’d strongly urge you and @Janet Hughes Defra to look at this:
You posted this on the ‘Questions for Janet Hughes at Cereals next week’ thread on16th June.

It actually answers a lot of recent question asked today on this very thread!


However, I’ll draw your attention to various quotes made by you and Janet about the 2023 SFI Handbook:

3.30 Janet refers to respect not shown towards farmers in the past, now wanting a “grown up conversation” (WTF were they previously?)

9.00 Janet claims we are now “All friends!”

11.00 Clive talks about his ‘No tillage’ and that it is “not for all”.
So why is such a committed No tillage farmer so ‘Pally’ with the RPA/DEFRA’s Director of ELMs?
Are there ‘Tillage farmers’ equally as ‘Pally’?

14.00 Clive talks about the complexity of combining CS with SFI.

15.00 Clive: “I’m as keen on modern communication as anybody. BUT, some things just need a BOOK!”
As in a paper book?
He goes on to mention that without a PAPER handbook, going backwards and forward to different sections is extremely difficult, unless it is a BOOK.

15.30 Janet nods in agreement! Writing it down on her own piece of PAPER!
She then acknowledges that “Previous ‘Old’ Navigation was always finalised on PAPER”!

17.00 Janet acknowledges Clive by nodding that there has been ‘Inconsistent Dialogue’ in the past.


We then moved onto the Q&A section:

19.00 Tom from Oxfordshire talks about the need for the shortly to be released latest SFI to be on PAPER.

21.00 Janet holds up a BOOK, saying it is 1 of 3 available from the Defra stand next door. Saying “If that is what people want, we will give it to them.”

22.00 Janet says there will be more info coming out in September/October re various specialist subject such as saving peatlands, etc.

27.00 Janet replies to a question regarding what would happen when we get a new Government. She claims that all the other parties claim that they will continue with ELMs .
Really?
Where and when have they ever said anything like that?
At the PAC meetings, both Labour and Lib-dems have been scathing of ELMs!

Janet claims that any existing Contracts between RPA and Farmers cannot be ended early after the election.
However, she cannot promise that future payment reductions for SFI and CS agreement won’t apply to existing Contracts after the election.

30.00 Janet apologises for not being able to answer more questions on TFF, but she “Just can’t do it!”

34.00 Clive tells Janet that there are big problems with different contract times of CS (5 years) and SFI (3 years) and that unless Janet can resolve this her 70% target will be “Unachievable”.
Janet as usual, nods profusely in agreement!


CONCLUSION:
PAPER documentation’s and HandBOOKs are mentioned on several occasions at the seminar.
Janet on this very thread promised that PAPER 2023 SFI Handbooks will be available upon request.
Therefore it is no excuse to say that the Handbook can only be downloaded.

“I cant do it!” I want a PAPER Handbook to work from. For precisely the reason why Clive explains at 15.00.

I think it only reasonable that everybody should get that PAPER 2023 SFI HandBOOK upon request from RPA.
…………Doesn’t everybody?

We’re loosing £80/a it doesn’t matter how you dress it up to get the same back you have to lose ground to do wild flowers and bits and bobs absolute Maddness

Clive said:

aims / outcomes are clear

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They are absolutely not clear. Take IGL2, its aim is described by the following single sentence:

This action’s aim is that improved grassland entered into this action is maintained so it’s left to go to seed during the autumn and winter months.

If the aims are so clear, please give me a quick summary of what is needed to meet the requirements of this option. I did ask JH but she blankly refused to discuss it.

4course said:

rang defra helpline today to find out more , after 3 ( interestingly I was always number one in the q so cant be many folk interested) calls the first 2 didnt have a clue one cut me off and never rang back the first couldnt or wouldnt understand my questions but eventually call 3 a helpful lady told me and spent some time grasping my situation it would be mid september or later before i could/ would be invited to apply and then wait a month at best for acceptence then another wait to agree before the following month finally starting the scheme on the first of the month following so effectively 1st december at the earliest so how do we do over wintered stuff or adopt a hedge row policy in the first year ,not possible was the advice but could add them for 24/5 .So basically feck all year 1 and then live in hope something comes up at a later date that fits . I explained that the scheme doesnt seem to take account of the farming seasons to which she explained Icould add things towards the end of year 1 and on further probing by me said the scheme for you would finish 3 years from the date of acceptance whenever you added extra bits so now back to studying the options on wet days of which we have an abundance lately .

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Sorry, would you mind clarifying to me what you think RPA's answer was....

If, for example, we join in Sept 2023, with an end date of Sept '26, but then we add in extra options a year after the initial start date (so we add them Sept 2024), do you know if the end date for the Sept 2024 added options is Sept 2026 or Sept 2027?