Why is paintwork so poor?

ollie989898 · Dec 31, 2023

I wouldn't put it past the EU to have banned or otherwise restricted the use of certain organic compounds because of atmospheric pollution concerns which may have subsequently affected paint.

I suppose it is easier for car makers because they have the scale to run their own hot dip galv tank and then dip each car in primer and paint individually. In a world of smaller volume ag equipment this is harder to do.

My brother would tell you must depends on the finished article long before it gets near being painted. Edges and the like have to be smoothed and de-burred because sharp angles etc will not retain paint properly or maintain the required thickness of the coating. Brand new materials should be immersed in hot acid solutions to clean them up before they are primed, if you don't any thin layers of grease or rust will stop the paint adhering to the metal and you're setting yourself up for problems in short order.

JCB products just seem to be manufactured too quickly in my view with no care taken on the end product so the black paint just seems to want to part company very quickly and there doesn't appear to be any primer underneath. It's almost like a design engineer has looked at it and said a 3 year intended lifespan is good enough. Are there other machinery makers whose paint is still great 10 years after manufacture?

ollie989898 · Dec 31, 2023

Fendtbro said:
To be honest, Nearly all paint is a waste of time on sheet metal and fabricated parts. Galvanising then overcoating with a colour is the only real solution. Agri trailers are half rotten by 10-15 years old up here but the manufacturers i've asked refuse to galvanise a trailer chassis for me. Too much trouble with holes and bores they say, But I am happy to pay for this work to be carried out.
The Stewart trailer here has offshore rubberised paint? which was expensive at £3k odd but seems to be doing well. Of course is getting chipped on the outside being a dumper but undercoat looks thick and doing a good job.
Despite what the Greenies say Galvanising is an enviromentally friendly process in the long run as products last 3-4 times longer! The firms that do this work should get help with tax reduction or similar to make the job cheaper and easier.
Almost all my new and refurbed steelwork gets Galvanised now as it is cheap at £1k a ton, Car towbars, landcruiser suspension links, fendt front mudguard brackets, and steps still to do. Even got brand new wheels on the fendt galvanised and powdercoated by DS Factors, not a cheap process but what's the use in shotblasting the failed powercoat off in 6 years time and repainting.. A good bit of care required fitting tyres and wheelnuts in this case as the powdercoat does chip off easily, a painting process might be better..

Trailer bodies in dump trailers are surely likely to be less of an issue for corrosion given that some of them will be made of pretty thick steel and no coating is going to stick being abraded by material being dumped in and tipped out over time anyway. But the sides of course should have a relatively charmed life compared to the chassis which as you say probably should be galvanised and then protected by decent mudguards to stop material being pasted everywhere underneath by the wheels.

Lincsman · Dec 31, 2023

ollie989898 said:
I wouldn't put it past the EU to have banned or otherwise restricted the use of certain organic compounds because of atmospheric pollution concerns which may have subsequently affected paint.

I suppose it is easier for car makers because they have the scale to run their own hot dip galv tank and then dip each car in primer and paint individually. In a world of smaller volume ag equipment this is harder to do.

My brother would tell you must depends on the finished article long before it gets near being painted. Edges and the like have to be smoothed and de-burred because sharp angles etc will not retain paint properly or maintain the required thickness of the coating. Brand new materials should be immersed in hot acid solutions to clean them up before they are primed, if you don't any thin layers of grease or rust will stop the paint adhering to the metal and you're setting yourself up for problems in short order.

JCB products just seem to be manufacturer too quickly in my view with no care taken on the end product so the black paint just seems to want to part company very quickly and there doesn't appear to be any primer underneath. It's almost like a design engineer has looked at it and said a 3 year intended lifespan is good enough. Are there other machinery makers whose paint is still great 10 years after manufacture?

New holland used to dip combines, not sure they can do them whole now?.. but dipping a digger cab should be no problem for any maker.

Hay Maker · Dec 31, 2023

Scholsey said:
What’s the legal standing of buying a jcb, front linkage, rolls and huge flakes of paint coming off after 1-2-3 years if it was a car there would be law suits galore.

Get JCB to respray them as paint should last at least 10 years except those used on livestock farms which would only last 3 years or so.

ollie989898 · Dec 31, 2023

Lincsman said:
New holland used to dip combines, not sure they can do them whole now?.. but dipping a digger cab should be no problem for any maker.

I don't know how big the actual chassis is on a combine these days but each individual part could be dipped and painted if necessary before it was assembled. Modern automated paint systems seem very very good and are widely used in the car industry. Don't they spray electrostatically so the paint is attracted to the metal and forms a consistent layer?

ccp contracting · Dec 31, 2023

Like most manafactures they are cutting costs , my 2018 MF is on its second grill 1st on warenty the 2nd one is getting bad with rust and the rear wheels are covered in rust . The 2007 MF no rust on it at all .

Drillman · Dec 31, 2023

Lead based paint is the answer

Fendtbro · Jan 1, 2024

ollie989898 said:
Trailer bodies in dump trailers are surely likely to be less of an issue for corrosion given that some of them will be made of pretty thick steel and no coating is going to stick being abraded by material being dumped in and tipped out over time anyway. But the sides of course should have a relatively charmed life compared to the chassis which as you say probably should be galvanised and then protected by decent mudguards to stop material being pasted everywhere underneath by the wheels.

Nothing that goes on the road in scotland gets a charmed life.. 8 months of road salt will eat through 6mm steel in 10 years no bother! New pickups are often scrap in 10 years, every single part underneath rotted to death. Galvanising is the only real solution as coated inside and out closed sections. Salty water finds it's way inside everything and when do manufacturers ever bother to wax cavities? Never going to happen!

Farmerpickle · Jan 1, 2024

John Deere paint has really gone down hill. I know somebody that keeps his equipment like new. He has had a 6400 from new and there is not a spec of rust on it and the paintwork is gleaming, despite being 30 years old. He bought a 6120M and after about four years the yellow on the wheels was as dull as dishwater and bubbling up on the rims.

JCB is hit and miss with their paint. I've known bits being missed and not painted at all in some places.

As for car components I doubt they know what paint is these days.

Lakesdigger · Jan 1, 2024

Farmerpickle said:
John Deere paint has really gone down hill. I know somebody that keeps his equipment like new. He has had a 6400 from new and there is not a spec of rust on it and the paintwork is gleaming, despite being 30 years old. He bought a 6120M and after about four years the yellow on the wheels was as dull as dishwater and bubbling up on the rims.

JCB is hit and miss with their paint. I've known bits being missed and not painted at all in some places.

As for car components I doubt they know what paint is these days.

To be fair wheels are probably bought in ready painted it's likely why they are the worst painted bit on most tractors.

Farmerpickle · Jan 1, 2024

Lakesdigger said:
To be fair wheels are probably bought in ready painted it's likely why they are the worst painted bit on most tractors.

You're right, wheels probably are bought in ready painted.

But why has it gone backwards? You'd expect the 4 year old wheels to be in better condition than the 30 year old wheels, not the other way around. The 6120 is doing exactly the same jobs as the 6400 was doing when it was only 4 years old.

Lakesdigger · Jan 1, 2024

Farmerpickle said:
You're right, wheels probably are bought in ready painted/

But why has it gone backwards? You'd expect the 4 year old wheels to be in better condition than the 30 year old wheels, not the other way around. The 6120 is doing exactly the same jobs as the 6400 was doing when it was only 4 years old.

The paint, the prep just general cost cutting. Although the advent of 50k tractors with welded centres possibly doesn't help as the centres are welded on one side and not the other. The gap on the non welded side isn't sealed and paint doesn't get right in the gap so the rust creeps out.

Chuckie · Jan 1, 2024

Lakesdigger said:
To be fair wheels are probably bought in ready painted it's likely why they are the worst painted bit on most tractors.

Somebody will be along in a minute to say that deere will have to charge more for their tractors if you want the wheels to be painted properly

Farmerpickle · Jan 1, 2024

Lakesdigger said:
The paint, the prep just general cost cutting. Although the advent of 50k tractors with welded centres possibly doesn't help as the centres are welded on one side and not the other. The gap on the non welded side isn't sealed and paint doesn't get right in the gap so the rust creeps out.

Great point!
I bet nobody in the factory has taken that factor into account.

Chris W · Jan 2, 2024

Powder coating is the preferred solution for a manufacturer because it looks fantastic out of the box and is cured almost immediately whereas wet paint can take 12-18months to cure properly.

Unfortunately in practice, agricultural machinery gets chipped, scratched etc and whereas the damaged area may rust with wet paint, the corrosion can cause the coating to sheet off with powercoating.

The biggest change in powercoating is in the pretreatment coating, traditionally a zinc phosphate pretreatment would have been used, this hasn’t officially been banned but the cost and complexity of dealing with the waste has caused most manufacturers to move to more environment and operator friendly products which aren’t as good.

2 coat powder systems are available and certainly superior but involve capital investment in an additional spray booth and oven. The biggest improvement is they no longer have to compromise between edge coverage and finish quality.. the 1st coat will be tuned to maximise edge coverage and the 2nd coat will be tuned to maximise the quality of the finish.

Inevitably manufacturers purchase finished components from all over the world in an attempt to keep build costs down, one problem with this is ensuring all the suppliers are maintaining quality standards, as we all know, preparation is the key.

Amazone fert spreaders for example, the green chassis, painted in house i assume (wet painted) lasts exceptionally well compared to the bolt on orange parts which happen to be power coat so assume bought in

JCB paint clearly gets a bad rep on here and quite rightly so imho. They employ numerous different paint techniques across the various factories. JS Excavators are wet sprayed, wheeled loaders are power coated and cabs are dip coated with an EPD undercoat (similar to the automotive world). Most bolt on component’s are brought in already painted.

The design of a typical JCB machine is where alot of the problems come from. They are predominantly welded structures with lots of laser cut edges. It is difficult to get a sufficient coating of paint on these areas with any method. Although I believe if you look at the most vulnerable edges on the new Telemaster’s they now have a radius machined on to assist with this.

In comparison take a JD 6r tractor chassis which is made up of 2 laser cut and folded side rails with a cast backend and cast front end and lots of injection moulded plastic bodywork. The castings arent always the easiest to paint well but on a tractor the visual impact of the paint not being perfect on the castings isn’t a huge worry. As most of us know the biggest paint issues on the JD tractors are the powder coated aluminium on the cab, the steps and the wheels (Which I assume are probably painted by GKN)

Other than the Larrington’s majestic chassis; Trailers again very rarely have exposed laser cut edge’s except from brackets and some tailgates. But as far as I am aware none of the trailer major manufacturers shotblast the whole trailer before painting. Larringtion did get one done as a special for me recently though so it is possible.

Same with the combine, the john deere combine chassis is dip coated which gives them the best chance of coating everything but then it is covered in plastic panels.

More and more manufacturers are moving this way to help solve the issues, every new model Agrifac sprayer has more plastics and less steel fabrications. Again the bolt on powercoated parts have been terrible over the years.

CORK · Jan 2, 2024

Chris W said:
Powder coating is the preferred solution for a manufacturer because it looks fantastic out of the box and is cured almost immediately whereas wet paint can take 12-18months to cure properly.

Unfortunately in practice, agricultural machinery gets chipped, scratched etc and whereas the damaged area may rust with wet paint, the corrosion can cause the coating to sheet off with powercoating.

The biggest change in powercoating is in the pretreatment coating, traditionally a zinc phosphate pretreatment would have been used, this hasn’t officially been banned but the cost and complexity of dealing with the waste has caused most manufacturers to move to more environment and operator friendly products which aren’t as good.

2 coat powder systems are available and certainly superior but involve capital investment in an additional spray booth and oven. The biggest improvement is they no longer have to compromise between edge coverage and finish quality.. the 1st coat will be tuned to maximise edge coverage and the 2nd coat will be tuned to maximise the quality of the finish.

Inevitably manufacturers purchase finished components from all over the world in an attempt to keep build costs down, one problem with this is ensuring all the suppliers are maintaining quality standards, as we all know, preparation is the key.

Amazone fert spreaders for example, the green chassis, painted in house i assume (wet painted) lasts exceptionally well compared to the bolt on orange parts which happen to be power coat so assume bought in

JCB paint clearly gets a bad rep on here and quite rightly so imho. They employ numerous different paint techniques across the various factories. JS Excavators are wet sprayed, wheeled loaders are power coated and cabs are dip coated with an EPD undercoat (similar to the automotive world). Most bolt on component’s are brought in already painted.

The design of a typical JCB machine is where alot of the problems come from. They are predominantly welded structures with lots of laser cut edges. It is difficult to get a sufficient coating of paint on these areas with any method. Although I believe if you look at the most vulnerable edges on the new Telemaster’s they now have a radius machined on to assist with this.

In comparison take a JD 6r tractor chassis which is made up of 2 laser cut and folded side rails with a cast backend and cast front end and lots of injection moulded plastic bodywork. The castings arent always the easiest to paint well but on a tractor the visual impact of the paint not being perfect on the castings isn’t a huge worry. As most of us know the biggest paint issues on the JD tractors are the powder coated aluminium on the cab, the steps and the wheels (Which I assume are probably painted by GKN)

Other than the Larrington’s majestic chassis; Trailers again very rarely have exposed laser cut edge’s except from brackets and some tailgates. But as far as I am aware none of the trailer major manufacturers shotblast the whole trailer before painting. Larringtion did get one done as a special for me recently though so it is possible.

Same with the combine, the john deere combine chassis is dip coated which gives them the best chance of coating everything but then it is covered in plastic panels.

More and more manufacturers are moving this way to help solve the issues, every new model Agrifac sprayer has more plastics and less steel fabrications. Again the bolt on powercoated parts have been terrible over the years.

Excellent summary, thanks Chris. On the subject of powder coated aluminium, it’s horrible when it bubbles and the powder coating comes off. What is the best way to paint this to stop it happening again?

Chuckie · Jan 2, 2024

Chris W said:
Powder coating is the preferred solution for a manufacturer because it looks fantastic out of the box and is cured almost immediately whereas wet paint can take 12-18months to cure properly.

Unfortunately in practice, agricultural machinery gets chipped, scratched etc and whereas the damaged area may rust with wet paint, the corrosion can cause the coating to sheet off with powercoating.

The biggest change in powercoating is in the pretreatment coating, traditionally a zinc phosphate pretreatment would have been used, this hasn’t officially been banned but the cost and complexity of dealing with the waste has caused most manufacturers to move to more environment and operator friendly products which aren’t as good.

2 coat powder systems are available and certainly superior but involve capital investment in an additional spray booth and oven. The biggest improvement is they no longer have to compromise between edge coverage and finish quality.. the 1st coat will be tuned to maximise edge coverage and the 2nd coat will be tuned to maximise the quality of the finish.

Inevitably manufacturers purchase finished components from all over the world in an attempt to keep build costs down, one problem with this is ensuring all the suppliers are maintaining quality standards, as we all know, preparation is the key.

Amazone fert spreaders for example, the green chassis, painted in house i assume (wet painted) lasts exceptionally well compared to the bolt on orange parts which happen to be power coat so assume bought in

JCB paint clearly gets a bad rep on here and quite rightly so imho. They employ numerous different paint techniques across the various factories. JS Excavators are wet sprayed, wheeled loaders are power coated and cabs are dip coated with an EPD undercoat (similar to the automotive world). Most bolt on component’s are brought in already painted.

The design of a typical JCB machine is where alot of the problems come from. They are predominantly welded structures with lots of laser cut edges. It is difficult to get a sufficient coating of paint on these areas with any method. Although I believe if you look at the most vulnerable edges on the new Telemaster’s they now have a radius machined on to assist with this.

In comparison take a JD 6r tractor chassis which is made up of 2 laser cut and folded side rails with a cast backend and cast front end and lots of injection moulded plastic bodywork. The castings arent always the easiest to paint well but on a tractor the visual impact of the paint not being perfect on the castings isn’t a huge worry. As most of us know the biggest paint issues on the JD tractors are the powder coated aluminium on the cab, the steps and the wheels (Which I assume are probably painted by GKN)

Other than the Larrington’s majestic chassis; Trailers again very rarely have exposed laser cut edge’s except from brackets and some tailgates. But as far as I am aware none of the trailer major manufacturers shotblast the whole trailer before painting. Larringtion did get one done as a special for me recently though so it is possible.

Same with the combine, the john deere combine chassis is dip coated which gives them the best chance of coating everything but then it is covered in plastic panels.

More and more manufacturers are moving this way to help solve the issues, every new model Agrifac sprayer has more plastics and less steel fabrications. Again the bolt on powercoated parts have been terrible over the years.

I believe that most major trailer makers do shot blast now, and those that don't, should do.

And the same with power coat, preparation is everything.

Chris W · Jan 2, 2024

Who does? Larrington only shotblast the drawbar as standard and I was told by the sales rep that Bailey don’t shotblast anything.

Chris W · Jan 2, 2024

CORK said:
Excellent summary, thanks Chris. On the subject of powder coated aluminium, it’s horrible when it bubbles and the powder coating comes off. What is the best way to paint this to stop it happening again?

No expert unfortunately, aluminium is usually anodised or powder coated, I believe you can powdercoat anodised aluminium but not sure how that effects longevity or if even thats already what JD do

CORK · Jan 2, 2024

Chris W said:
No expert unfortunately, aluminium is usually anodised or powder coated, I believe you can powdercoat anodised aluminium but not sure how that effects longevity or if even thats already what JD do

It’s horrid the way the aluminium goes powdery under the powder coat, I guess it’s aluminium’s version of rusting/oxidation.
There’s a place here that I usually source paint, they do stuff for ships, railways etc.

They have very good quality paints (Jotun brand) so I must ask when I get a chance.

Why is paintwork so poor?

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