Arable FBT soil testing

neilo · Feb 29, 2024

Chatting with my agronomist this morning and he was telling me how some FBT agreements, down in more arable areas, had clauses in them requiring the land to be soil tested at the beginning and end of the term with a full spectrum analysis, with a charge to put right any degradation.
I've heard of local FBT agreements requiring similar, but with basic (pH, P & K) analysis done, but most of the agents up here wouldn't understand anything more detailed than that anyway.

Having never seen one of these agreements, how does that degradation (or presumably improvement) get valued, either when based on a basic analysis or, more particularly, on full testing? Is there a standard method of valuing?

David. · Feb 29, 2024

Guess they are worried about the usual suspects putting in balls-out tenders, and then mining the land for 5yrs.... like they did the last place.
And yet you can put on heaps of 0.24.24 and not shift the analysis much at all.

som farmer · Feb 29, 2024

like the yearly grass keep lets, high to start, gradually work downwards over a few years, because quality declined, then when reduced to rubbish status, get some poor sod to take it on a 5yr fbt, and just as he gets it in good heart, take the highest tender again.

The only people that gain, are those pink corduroy trouser brigade, with their commission.

Flatlander · Feb 29, 2024

Heard of some new letting over here like that. would be tough getting money out of an exiting tenant to replenish used fertilizer, could go the other way also if the ground is improved Can see the agents smiling over sorting it out.

looks like I got beaten too it.

David. · Feb 29, 2024

I honestly believe that landowners get the tenants they deserve.

Flatlander · Feb 29, 2024

David. said:
I honestly believe that landowners get the tenants they deserve.

I bought some rented ground 15 years ago. The P levels were so low some soil samples tested next to nothing. Same tenant for the past twenty years. I’ve been pouring phos on every years at double expected removal rate and have now only got it into the maintenance levels. It’s cost me a small fortune over the years and if I ever retire and my kids aren’t old enough to take over a rental agreement will include a maintenance of fertility clause and a drainage one too. It takes a long time to improve land but a short time to mine it.

David. · Feb 29, 2024

I stood in some pasture last year that was similarly absolutely depleted, you could see every cow-pis5 and gofer hill on the entire quarter from the gateway. Guy reckons it's prime cropping land, and sees it at 4.5k/ac

Hindsight · Feb 29, 2024

neilo said:
Chatting with my agronomist this morning and he was telling me how some FBT agreements, down in more arable areas, had clauses in them requiring the land to be soil tested at the beginning and end of the term with a full spectrum analysis, with a charge to put right any degradation.
I've heard of local FBT agreements requiring similar, but with basic (pH, P & K) analysis done, but most of the agents up here wouldn't understand anything more detailed than that anyway.

Having never seen one of these agreements, how does that degradation (or presumably improvement) get valued, either when based on a basic analysis or, more particularly, on full testing? Is there a standard method of valuing?

Quite standard practice for several years. Depends on the Landowner. Several Land Agents like the concept. Standard for Crown tenancies in my area for maybe 10 or more years. Usually SOYL conduct the survey and deliver report. Cost ends up in the rental agreement. I have commented that variance in sampling, laboratory etc make the potential for error and difference quite probable.

Mixedupfarmer · Feb 29, 2024

neilo said:
Chatting with my agronomist this morning and he was telling me how some FBT agreements, down in more arable areas, had clauses in them requiring the land to be soil tested at the beginning and end of the term with a full spectrum analysis, with a charge to put right any degradation.
I've heard of local FBT agreements requiring similar, but with basic (pH, P & K) analysis done, but most of the agents up here wouldn't understand anything more detailed than that anyway.

Having never seen one of these agreements, how does that degradation (or presumably improvement) get valued, either when based on a basic analysis or, more particularly, on full testing? Is there a standard method of valuing?

Quite common around here, but a fairly recent addition to tenancies, and I don't know of any that have ended with the clause in yet. I would hope if records of realistic P, K etc inputs and offtake were kept for cropping / stocking, the tenant would have a fair chance against a reasonable variation in outgoing soil analysis. How they would accurately calculate the value of dilapidations on a reduction on p and K values on outgoing, I have no idea.

Brisel · Feb 29, 2024

David. said:
I honestly believe that landowners get the tenants they deserve.

I can’t like this comment enough!

Do any of these agreements pay out Tenant’s Improvements if the end indices are higher?

Little squeak · Feb 29, 2024

Hindsight said:
I have commented that variance in sampling, laboratory etc make the potential for error and difference quite probable.

My father went to a demonstation of soil analisis decades ago none of the several testers got the same reading off the same sample. My conclusion is it's only a guide.

neilo · Feb 29, 2024

Brisel said:
I can’t like this comment enough!

Do any of these agreements pay out Tenant’s Improvements if the end indices are higher?

This is my angle, as what’s good for the goose is surely good for the gander? If a LL is happy to accept that there is a value in a certain difference, then it could be argued either way…

I’m told the established way of valuing fertility improvements is by making allowance for lime applied in the last 7 years and P&K applied in the last 3 years. I would suggest that such expenses are irrelevant if the improvements in soil chemistry and biology is more down to management practices.
Is there a formulae for valuing changes in CEC etc?

neilo · Feb 29, 2024

David. said:
I honestly believe that landowners get the tenants they deserve.

Conversely, some landlords don’t deserve the tenants they get either. At risk of sounding like a prominent Scottish member, it works both ways.

som farmer · Feb 29, 2024

we came out of 50 acres, few years back, warned about dilapidations etc, in the formal notice.

never mentioned again to us, but other tenants on the same estate, had some serious bill to pay.

we have 3 away blocks locally, basically lower rent, with condition that we look after it, no problem with that whatsoever, all 3 done on a handshake. And possibility of being offered more land, been recommended by existing l/lords. So it really pays to look after ground. Interestingly none of those 3 blocks were without land agent involvement. If they had been, rent would be double.

glasshouse · Feb 29, 2024

neilo said:
Conversely, some landlords don’t deserve the tenants they get either. At risk of sounding like a prominent Scottish member, it works both ways.

I took on a farm with the p and k barely on the scale. With no modern buildings no fencesand drainage lnackered
I fixed it all including a grain store that would cost about £800 k today.
Then they kicked me out.

David. · Mar 1, 2024

Could you have flattened the grain store, legally I mean?
And always remember, life is shorter than memory.

glasshouse · Mar 1, 2024

David. said:
Could you have flattened the grain store, legally I mean?
And always remember, life is shorter than memory.

No

Brisel · Mar 1, 2024

There is no formula for the cost of raising a soil index. Different soils will require different amounts of fertiliser to do so. Try holding an index 2 for K on a sandy soil - it just can't be done. Add the inconsistency of laboratories and sampling mentioned above and it is little better than playing the lottery.

Don't get me started on measuring organic matter!

glasshouse · Mar 1, 2024

David. said:
Could you have flattened the grain store, legally I mean?
And always remember, life is shorter than memory.

When we left the farm we were still fighting for compensation for improvements. We still are.
Therefore There was no opportunity to take it down.
You cant remove an acre of reinforced polished concrete, intake pits, concrete walls, twenty grand of electrical work , roads hardstandings, drains etc etc

som farmer · Mar 1, 2024

glasshouse said:
When we left the farm we were still fighting for compensation for improvements. We still are.
Therefore There was no opportunity to take it down.
You cant remove an acre of reinforced polished concrete, intake pits, concrete walls, twenty grand of electrical work , roads hardstandings, drains etc etc

our (family) l/lord point blank refused to spend a single penny on the farm, very acrimonious, to say the least.

so it was agreed that any/all 'tenants improvements' would be liable for compensation, to me, at full mkt value.

mother, l/lord, fell out with original solicitors, and moved to another firm,

she has now kicked the bucket, and after 30 yrs, we are trying to sort things out. Now tenants improvements have been extensive, bungalow, lagoon, buildings, cow tracks and a complete new water system

the 'new' solicitors, are trying it on, written off over 10 yrs etc, we have put a claim in for £700,000, just to leave some room for manoeuvre. My sisters are furious. And l don't think they have the paperwork from the original firm, l think the move was not mutually agreed.

they have been asking for 'l/lords agreement', pretty well all the buildings/concrete, were partially done on CSF, grants, which had to be signed by a trustee, obviously done as l got paid.

we are presently at a stalemate, and as it was all fecked up, by solicitors, in the initial documents, l don't think they know quite what to do. I would however, prefer to be 'sorted' out, and a fair offer has been put to them, nearly 1 year ago, with no reply.

Arable FBT soil testing

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page