Grass and fertiliser

Berryhillbilly · Apr 19, 2024

Hi all, this year I've decided no more fert.....for now. Got fed up with fert and spray market profiteering and making sure even if we got a huge lift in price for any produce we were only allowed to make the same money as they'd take it all back the next season. Didn't help not having the space or cash flow to buy it in out of season admittedly. Anyhow, we're all grass now and I've not put any fert on to date this season. However, the young grass is like a jungle for the poor lambs in one field, this still being fed from muck from last year it would seem but 3,4 and 5 year leys are growing well, even really old permanent pasture I've been worrying would need fert is romping away. I can't imagine ground temperature is very high yet and I can't remember having much more if any more grass when we used to put fert on. Will this bubble burst or will it do even better when actual spring arrives? Just wondered what other people's thoughts or practices were and how you get on. Also my heart goes out to anyone else still battling on with lambing/calving and the ones who have come out the other side, it's been tough and we're still battling more problems than just the weather.

ritchiekirkland · Apr 19, 2024

There still be reserves in the soil I would think . After that runs out the grass will start to get a bit hungry .
I find young grass especially need fed compared to old pp.
Depends how much muck you have to go around too though I guess .

DrDunc · Apr 19, 2024

Sample the soil:

Starve your soil and you starve your livestock

Without sampling the soil, you'll never know if it's hungry. Clover rich swards dramatically reduce summer N applications, but you need to know what P&K reserves are available

Would you decide not to fill up your car without first looking at the fuel guage?

Soil sample, it makes sense

ringi · Apr 19, 2024

It depends how much clover and other legumes you have, if your PH is in the range they like and if P/K remains reasonable. Along with if you return enough FYM to the land compared to hay/sillage removed.

Organic farmers make it work.

Some of the farm payments will pay enough to have lower stocking density in exchange for letting the clover flower, giving each area a rest to allow the flowing also helps the roots go deaper. Parts of fields can be allowed to flower at different times over summer.

Berryhillbilly · Apr 19, 2024

Our P/K reserves are good, soil has high organic matter and pH levels are good or slightly low, any of which get topped up with lime. Clover content is also good, I guess the question I'm asking is have we been putting nitrogen on grazing ground for the sake of it because we've always thought if we don't apply nitrogen it won't grow nearly as well? The "spring" we've had so far, you'd think growth would be minimal yet I'm pleasantly surprised. I've not sold the fert spinner yet mind.

harperfarmer · Apr 19, 2024

You'll have the grass now but you'll find without N, once grazed off it won't grow back quite as fast therefore won't stand very high stocking rates. That's what I find anyway. We don't put any N on grazing ground or GS4 leys and they look great at turnout but you won't stock as hard throughout the season. I'm quite happy to carry on without applying the N though because that also reduces the requirement to lime. Each to their own. I paddock graze early season to make best use of what grass is there early on and then move to set stocking later on once they are on top of that spring flush.

Sam Partridge · Apr 19, 2024

Berryhillbilly said:
Our P/K reserves are good, soil has high organic matter and pH levels are good or slightly low, any of which get topped up with lime. Clover content is also good, I guess the question I'm asking is have we been putting nitrogen on grazing ground for the sake of it because we've always thought if we don't apply nitrogen it won't grow nearly as well? The "spring" we've had so far, you'd think growth would be minimal yet I'm pleasantly surprised. I've not sold the fert spinner yet mind.

I think a lot of people found they could take a "holiday" when fert was £900/ton but only for 1 year

Berryhillbilly · Apr 19, 2024

This is what I was wondering, once that spring flush has gone how will it manage there after. I'm not opposed to putting N on, I'm only opposed to profiteering from big business. We'd always fire cwt½/2cwt on early doors then cwt on late summer. Even if it's reduced to 1 application mid summer say, its worth looking at.

neilo · Apr 19, 2024

Berryhillbilly said:
This is what I was wondering, once that spring flush has gone how will it manage there after. I'm not opposed to putting N on, I'm only opposed to profiteering from big business. We'd always fire cwt½/2cwt on early doors then cwt on late summer. Even if it's reduced to 1 application mid summer say, it’s worth looking at.

I treat N fert (on grass) purely as an accelerator pedal these days. I don’t put any early N on, yet still have way too much grass in May.
If you have a system that needs lots of silage that’s fine, but I try to avoid such expense.

I’d keep your fert spreader though, as you will likely need it to apply P&K to keep the clover producing N for you. If you take nutrients out of the system, you will need to put them back somehow.

Kiwi Pete · Apr 19, 2024

Berryhillbilly said:
Our P/K reserves are good, soil has high organic matter and pH levels are good or slightly low, any of which get topped up with lime. Clover content is also good, I guess the question I'm asking is have we been putting nitrogen on grazing ground for the sake of it because we've always thought if we don't apply nitrogen it won't grow nearly as well? The "spring" we've had so far, you'd think growth would be minimal yet I'm pleasantly surprised. I've not sold the fert spinner yet mind.

Spring N application just accelerates what was going to happen anyway, like drinking coffee in the morning

If you don't need it you don't need it !

Berryhillbilly · Apr 19, 2024

Thanks for all your replies guys, I'm certainly looking to cut that early N application out going forward and I suppose we'll see how the year pans out. If some needs putting on later then I'll buckle, I'm not gonna cut my nose off to spite my face but would really love to try a year off and see how it goes. It's always good to hear how other people get on doing different things.

Kiwi Pete · Apr 20, 2024

Berryhillbilly said:
Thanks for all your replies guys, I'm certainly looking to cut that early N application out going forward and I suppose we'll see how the year pans out. If some needs putting on later then I'll buckle, I'm not gonna cut my nose off to spite my face but would really love to try a year off and see how it goes. It's always good to hear how other people get on doing different things.

Probably the best time to apply is just as the summer dry spell ends, if you want maximum bang for your money spent.

Otherwise you create a 'bigger' surplus, which costs more of your time and energy managing, and then the very real likelihood of getting carried away with the mower which increases the chances of feeding out to get through the summer dry spell.
Not suggesting that describes your farming practice, but it's often the way, most of the blokes putting on spring N around here just dig a bigger hole faster

crashbox · Apr 20, 2024

Maybe do some in-field trials...

Humble Village Farmer · Apr 20, 2024

Some of the posts on this thread read like a fertiliser salesman's handbook.

We haven't put N on grass for years. In fact when my neighbour calibrated his spreader on one of our fields years ago, it greened up to start with but was markedly poorer for the rest of the season.

As well as stopping the natural symbiosis of soil biology, which supplies atmospheric N to plants, synthetic N encourages depletion of soil carbon, which further degrades the soil's ability to make its own.

Cowlife · Apr 20, 2024

Humble Village Farmer said:
Some of the posts on this thread read like a fertiliser salesman's handbook.

We haven't put N on grass for years. In fact when my neighbour calibrated his spreader on one of our fields years ago, it greened up to start with but was markedly poorer for the rest of the season.

As well as stopping the natural symbiosis of soil biology, which supplies atmospheric N to plants, synthetic N encourages depletion of soil carbon, which further degrades the soil's ability to make its own.

Just curious do you still apply apply p and k or fym. Reseed or pp?
We have a couple of bits of pp get slurry only and grow remarkably we'll. And have loads of clover.

Humble Village Farmer · Apr 20, 2024

No I don't do p or k anymore either. We do grow as much clover and other broadleaves as possible though. Anecdotally, i have found ryegrass, while being the most responsive to N, is also the most dependent on it. It's almost as if it's pushed for this reason by the supply industry. Cocksfoot and Timothy do quite well without.

Cowlife · Apr 20, 2024

Humble Village Farmer said:
No I don't do p or k anymore either. We do grow as much clover and other broadleaves as possible though. Anecdotally, i have found ryegrass, while being the most responsive to N, is also the most dependent on it. It's almost as if it's pushed for this reason by the supply industry. Cocksfoot and Timothy do quite well without.

I'd agree about the ryegrass.

ringi · Apr 20, 2024

Humble Village Farmer said:
No I don't do p or k anymore either.

I assume any hay etc you cut remains on the farm and is returned as fym.

Humble Village Farmer said:
Anecdotally, i have found ryegrass, while being the most responsive to N, is also the most dependent on it. It's almost as if it's pushed for this reason by the supply industry.

It seems to be assumed that a large 1st cut of silage is required to all livestock systems. ryegrass seems to have been bread to maximise how much quick release N it will use for this 1st cut.

Limcrazy · Apr 20, 2024

harperfarmer said:
You'll have the grass now but you'll find without N, once grazed off it won't grow back quite as fast therefore won't stand very high stocking rates. That's what I find anyway. We don't put any N on grazing ground or GS4 leys and they look great at turnout but you won't stock as hard throughout the season. I'm quite happy to carry on without applying the N though because that also reduces the requirement to lime. Each to their own. I paddock graze early season to make best use of what grass is there early on and then move to set stocking later on once they are on top of that spring flush.

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It always paid to feed good grass to good stock.

crashbox · Apr 20, 2024

People managed grass with stock for thousands of years without artificial N. To claim grass "needs" artificial N is rubbish. But it might grow more if you apply some.

The question is "how much grass do you need"; and then, "if I need more, will artificial N give me that economically".

Grass will yield up to the first limiting factor, be that moisture, compaction, pH, species, N, P, K, sunlight.

Plenty of organic farmers growing 10+ tonnes dry matter per hectare with clover, good soil and grass management.

Plenty of conventional farmers applying N and growing less.

Grass and fertiliser

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